Hm, yeah I guess no one has been speculating about this part of the de/federate Threads reality. Everyone’s worried about Meta and EEE, but what we should have really been discussing is the history of Meta moderation and community guidelines which have often cited “free speech” when people use white supremacist dog whistling but cite “calls to violence” when people of color actively complain about white supremacy.
There’s a reason why we have seen news articles about large LEO Facebook groups trading and making joke comments on racist memes…
We were worried about the technology, but we should have been worried about cultural infiltration.
Oh, we haven’t been speculating about moderation because that’s a known quantity. A major driver of defederarion discussion on the microblogging side of the fedi has been about the moderation issues that people would have to deal with if federated with Threads. And especially about bad actors on Threads getting posts from users on defederated instances via intermediary sites, and then spotlighting vulnerable people to trolls on other instances.
It’s why many niche Mastodon instances are talking about defederating from any other site not blocking Threads. It’s a significant mental safety risk for vulnerable people in the alt-right’s sights.
I’m not an “early adopter” of the Fediverse per se, but I came over on the reddit migration on June 11. I feel like I’ve been an information sponge trying to wrap my head around the organization of the Fediverse and seeing the benefits. I think I’m pretty up to speed, at least enough to discuss it with people offline and explain it in a way that does it some justice.
But I don’t think I’ve seen a lot of discussion about the drawbacks of the Fediverse. I’ve seen a few threads about major privacy concerns related to the Fediverse, but most of the comments responding just kind of hand wave the issue.
Seeing a possible larger issue here regarding the moderation issues, I can’t see anything other than a total containment of Threads away from other instances. Like, great - use ActivityPub, but don’t talk to me (kbin.social) or my child (literally everything else that wants to interact together in the Fediverse with kbin) again. Lol
The thing is, because minority-targeting trolls aren’t taken seriously by any corporate social media platform, there’s no big downside compared to them. It’s just that them showing up here is effectively taking the safer space these communities they’ve built away from them, returning things to basically how they were just before they fled those other spaces.
They were made safe not due to the tools, but due to obscurity, and they’re about to lose that obscurity.
This is… I don’t want to call it a “good thing”, because people who have suffered many assholes suffering them all over again is in no way, shape, or form good, but it’s highlighting an issue that’s been clear to these communities, but not to developers on the Fediverse: The moderation tools here are hot, sweaty garbage.
Hopefully we can see serious movement on making useful tools now.
Supporting free speech means allowing people you hate to talk too. Censor a Nazi one day, then the next day it’s something your weird friend likes, then the next day it’s something you like.
Everyone deserves a platform online, but they have to earn their audience. Censoring them is only going to make more people want to go to other platforms to hear and see what they have to say.
That’s just common misconception. Free speech is there to protect people from the government, not business. If my anti-racism voice gets suppressed on Threads (assuming I ever make an account there) I’d just move to another platform.
And really, there’s no good reason for a well-intended internet community to allow racism expand.
Racism will expand if you censor it.
How many racists have a big audience? And I mean openly, explicitly racist. Not the dog-whistle racism from Fox news.
People have been censored by automated systems for just criticizing racists. Yes, that means that all the people who call them out for being shitty get censored too.
𝓓𝓮𝓯𝓮𝓭𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓽𝓮
If all instances defederate it will force people to hand their data over to Zuckerberg to access the bigger network, and they will have no control over what shite the algorithm pushes into their timeline.
There’s a very good case for some instances to defederate. All of them defederating would be a terrible mistake.
There is no strategical alliance to be made with Meta. That company literally complicitly hosted the platform for a genovide to be planned.. There is no outsmarting, strategic federating or any sudden interest on their side involved. Its all a plot to wring people out in the most heinous way they can get away with.
What exactly would any fediverse user be getting out of this? Why would Meta have any interest in giving us anything, even attention?
You’re not addressing anything I said.
Do I have to write “Meta is evil” as a preface to every comment?
Meta does not need the Fediverse. In terms of user numbers, we’re a rounding error. It has no need to embrace in order to extinguish. Pootling about on your high horse demanding the Fediverse become a monolith (FFS) will do absolutely nothing to stop them.
If the Fediverse universally defederates it will force millions of users who want/need a larger network to hand their data over to Meta and the Fediverse will die for everyone who wasn’t on it before October 2022.
There are no good choices here. But there are some absolutely daft ones.
You’re not addressing anything I said.
I was trying to say that you arent being creative enough in imagining the awful plans they might have for federation. There is no winning with Meta. The best move is not to play.
Meta does not need the Fediverse. In terms of user numbers, we’re a rounding error. It has no need to embrace in order to extinguish.
Companies arent actually that rational in this regard. I completely agree that the fediverse is not a threat in any possible meaning of that word, but that doesnt mean Meta wouldnt like to have its feelers on us or destroy the protocol.
If the Fediverse universally defederates it will force millions of users who want/need a larger network to hand their data over to Meta and the Fediverse will die for everyone who wasn’t on it before October 2022.
Defederation just means that Threads is blocked from viewing/interacting with fediverse servers. Right now, Threads is deferated (because it cant interact), but simply because they havent set it up yet. People can still learn about the fediverse and join up whenever they want. I dont think I understand your point.
Defederation just means that Threads is blocked from viewing/interacting with fediverse servers. Right now, Threads is deferated (because it cant interact), but simply because they havent set it up yet. People can still learn about the fediverse and join up whenever they want. I dont think I understand your point.
My point is that the Fediverse is growing because of exiles from Twitter and Reddit. The vast majority of those users want/need a bigger network than is currently available on the Fediverse to get the breadth and depth of content that was on those sites.
If all instances defederate, then many of those users will reluctantly hand their data over to Zuckerberg instead. The vast majority of them already have through Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp etc.
Meta might well want to murder us but universal defederation is just committing suicide instead. It’s the wrong tactic.
My hope is that Threads sticks with a shitty algorithmic feed and bombards people with corporate bullshit, and its users find out that independent instances exist and will give them more control.
My other hope is that other mega-corps (Google, Mozilla, etc) open up their own instances and end up holding each other hostage because it’s so easy for their users to jump ship to a competitor.
It’s a difficult situation to be sure but universal defederation is giving up without a fight.
The vast majority of those users want/need a bigger network than is currently available on the Fediverse to get the breadth and depth of content that was on those sites.
Disclaimer, i havent used Threads. But everything i’ve seen from it was just influencer spam, grifting and corporate twitter. I dont think i want that kind of content. Quite the opposite, this is the reason i chose the fediverse.
My hope is that Threads sticks with a shitty algorithmic feed and bombards people with corporate bullshit, and its users find out that independent instances exist and will give them more control.
Why would anyone sign up for those instances if they can just look at that stuff from Threads? Furthermore, it would actually make things more difficult, because explaining the fediverse to people that are coming from a corporate social media but that have already had fediverse content is just going to turn them away. It would be far more comfortable for them to just continue using threads.
Thirdly, it would also influence the federated instances. All the influencer spam and brand bs thats going on over there would also end up on the fediverse.
And lastly, we dont have to win over every user and every bit of content. The fediverse isnt some VC funded social media that requires unlimited growth. If there is nothing good to grow into, it can just stay the size it is and be fine. I dont get the constant arguments for growth if the new content would be the worst social media can offer and the users would be facebook tier grifters.I dont think i want that kind of content. Quite the opposite, this is the reason i chose the fediverse.
That’s your personal preference. What you call spam others may call content. I expect if your favorite personality / organization / news-provider joined Threads and started posting content there that you don’t consider “spam” then it being in Threads would be an annoyance.
I believe kbin doesn’t have it yet, but some fediverse platforms offer the option to block a particular instance from your feed without limiting everyone else. So that would be an alternative. Even if by default it added Threads in the blocklist of everyone.
I expect you do see some value on federation (seeing how you seem to be participating in some communities beyond your home instance), so I think the question “why would anyone sign up if they can just use Threads” would answer itself if you don’t assume everyone shares your preference.
And it’s perfectly fine if those people turned away by the fediverse don’t join. Personally, I don’t think we should be trying to get everyone to join at all costs or anything like that.
