Overall, 39% of U.S. adults say they are “extremely proud” to be American in the most recent poll.
Meanwhile, only 18% of those aged 18-34 said the same, compared to 40% of those aged 35-54 and 50% of those 55 and over.
18% is still too high. As Obama’s pastor said, God damn America! Americans have very little to be proud of at this point.
What is there to be proud of? An illegitimate court, house and senate bought and paid for by corporations and foreign governments, a capitalist economy that crushes 99.99 percent to lift the 0.01 even higher? These are points of shame, not pride.
Honestly I’m pretty proud of how well turned the ship around on gay rights. Like in the span of a decade there was like a 40% opinion swing on that. We’re still not where we need to be and it seems like it’s getting worse though tbh. I think Europe overtook us on that front because I feel much safer here in Germany being gay in public.
How (generally) genuinely nice and outgoing everyone is in the states. (Outside of the south where it tends to be a very fake in my experience.) In the states I’m mildly introverted, in Germany I’m usually one of the most outgoing in the room.
Our multicultural foods and stuff. You’re never more than a stones throw from really good Mexican, Chinese, Thai, etc. food anywhere in the US.
Turning right on a red light, the European mind cannot comprehend it.
Air Conditioning.
Handicap accessibility.
Our national parks are unparalleled.
Probably a few other American gems I could think of if forced to.
All that being said I’m immigrating to Germany right now and the grass is very much greener over here. I have no desire to live in the US again. I’m definitely not proud of America anymore, but I am proud of a few things about America.
Pretty damning with faint praise there really.
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Just saying that cars turning right on red have almost run me over as a pedestrian multiple times.
Yeah, our and driver- and car-manufacturer-friendly policies have a measurable impact on the safety of non-car users of public infrastructure.
Not a great example IMO.
I’m sorry, and I know this isn’t the point you’re trying to make, but the idea of someone asking an American why they’re proud to be an American, and they respond with “air conditioning” is just so funny to me that I’ve been giggling like a moron about it for the last 20 minutes.
Can confirm, am German and not proud to be an American either.
How dare you!
Ironically many Americans are proud to be [pick any European country].
Which I always found is considering they nor their parents nor grandparents had every set foot in that nation.
I can explain that. If you moved to the US from where you’re from, would you call yourself an American or where you’re from? What about your kids born in the US, would they then be an American and you’re not? Would you want your family history passed down? Now include war, being chased out of your home country, etc., and you got yourself someone that wants to honor that history for generations.
Nah, that’s weird.
In Australia, if you were born here, you’re Australian. That’s it. I have lots of friends whose parents are from all over the world - UK, Ireland, Italy, Greece, India, Sri Lanka, Hong Kong, The Phillipines, NZ. Almost 50% of Australians have a parent who wasn’t born here.
But if you ask any of those first generation Australians where they’re from, they’d all say Australia - not their parents country.
The American obsession with race/lineage/DNA tests is just weird.
In theory, to be American your ethnic background should be diverse. We are the uniting force of humanity.
It’s like me claiming to be Polish-British because my mum’s family came here in the 1600s. It’s stupid.
This is logical.
If you’re parent/grandparent are still a German citizen you can apply for German citizenship until 2031.
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No, but I also don’t quite know where I implied that. Language barrier maybe?
Nothing. They’re just an asshole who took your comment to mean that you aren’t proud of America, but are proud of Germany and decided to quote a bad thing that happened in Germany. Like you can only be proud or criticize other countries if your country is perfect.
My point was simply Germany is far more racist of a country than the US could ever hope to be. When 1/4 of Germans are ok with lynching black people in the streets, then I think one has to look inwards at their own personal gripes instead of demeaning others simply for being born black like myself.
And yes, 25% of Germans are far-right wing nationalists, this is not the same type of nationalism as here in America, this is real Nazism we’re talking about, not the phony American kind
Also I suggest everyone read this article:
Please do not defend Nazis, the EU has a very serious Right-wing problem that’s growing more and more each year and I would appreciate people addressing these issues instead of brushing them under the rug because that just tells me you’re ok with it
“Many think AfD could emerge as the strongest party when Brandenburg and the fellow eastern states of Saxony and Thuringia hold elections next year. In Thuringia, the AfD candidate last month won the county administrator’s post in Sonneberg, the first time since the Nazi era that a far-right party placed first at the county level.”
My point was simply Germany is far more racist of a country than the US could ever hope to be.
… and… nobody suggested otherwise?
(edit)
Hold on, are you replying to the wrong thread? Because then your replies would make sense.
I thought we were living in 2023. Why be proud of coincidence to happen to born in a location? Feel lucky compared to other locations, maybe that makes more sense.
Yeah, I’ve never understood it. Especially when that location gives you privilege over people in other places. You’re proud because you were born in a wealthy country due to no control of your own? Fuck your pride, there are people starving to death. Feeling lucky you’re not one of them, fine. Being proud of it? That makes you an asshole.
I guess the other way to think is. You should be proud America helped in developing the internet, uk for penicillin, Greece for democracy etc. what’s wrong in that?
Italy for pizza
Don’t forget lots of people have nuclear bombs now… that’s pretty cool.
What does that have to do with pizza.
You can cook a pizza very fast in an atomic blast.
there is an optimal distance from the grocery store, where a nuclear blast would cook the frozen pizza section to perfection
I’m going to let you decide.
It’s conceivable that one would be proud of their country for the actions their country takes, both domestic and/or world stage. Like I’m sure the people living in those Scandinavian where a vast majority of their country is healthy, happy, and even their criminals are treated with dignity and respect can be proud of how their country has turned out.
I don’t think it’s a common interpretation to feel self-directed pride due to one’s country. Unless, maybe, you’re the president or someone who makes actual decisions for the country.
I’ve met plenty of people from Africa: Kenya, Ghana, Mozambique, Sudan, Ethiopia; who are great friends and colleagues to this day from my days at NASA JPL
Incredibly brilliant people live outside of Europe too
I do not mean to be dense but I don’t follow how your comment applies to mine.
European Defaultism is inherently racist, and it’s a constant problem on the internet with left-wing people who pretend not to be racist, but loathe people of color and the countries they come from, only ever referencing white European countries as some sort of fake “utopia” that doesn’t really exist. It’s one of the most common forms of racism on the internet
Yep, so many times Americans online say “the rest of the world” when what they actually mean is “Western and Northern Europe”. It’s so frustrating, and like you said more than a touch racist (usually unintentionally so, but that doesn’t make it any less shitty).
As a German punk song said: “If you have nothing else to be proud of you can always be proud of your country”
I do feel extremely fortunate to be American, but yeah, it doesn’t really seem like we’ve done anything worth being proud of as a nation since… ww2? That was a fucking while ago.
The kids under 35 have only known post-911 snooping, bigotry, military adventurism, the 2008 mortgage crash, housing and education costing multiples of what previous generations paid (in adjusted dollars), COVID insanity, a political system that is completely inaccessible to them and utterly uncaring about their needs, and, finally, a climate being actively accelerated to disaster.
The wonder here shouldn’t be at their lack of patriotism. It should be at the fact that they aren’t setting fire to everything, murdering politicians, billionaires, and their lackeys, and generally grinding everything to a halt.
I feel like there’s also the fact that everyone who has comfortably been established tells them they’re lazy and aren’t trying hard enough…to get past all the barriers those greedy people have set up
And that we have the resources to make sure they don’t die and their teeth don’t fall out…but they don’t get it
And the fact that the elites have convinced them somehow that voting is pointless… They need to get shaken out of that.
If everyone who was in that 82% voted, the republican party would die overnight
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they know lot things becouse of internet but america did lot of fucked up thing pre-911
Yeah but we bombed the shit out of Slobodan Milosevic, which was based.
They still love America over there because of that! Definitely check out Bosnia and Albania if you ever get a chance. And it’s a really cool region in general.
🤣
Don’t forget seeing kids their age murdered in classrooms just about every day!
I don’t know a lot of teens but the handful I do know all tell me that active shooter drills are extremely terrifying and traumatic, because they aren’t told in advance if it is real or not, so they never know if they’re about to get fucking murdered. Teachers don’t know either. Can you imagine? They’re going to be able to vote in 2024 and all told me they’re voting down the line democrat, even though we are in a blood red city in a reddish purple state.
'Murica and 'Muricans are sooo behind in the world. I’m not sure why but I think that the media veil enclosing USA is doing a fair bit of lifting. There’s now alternative/new ideas and examples of how countries work today. The mental exposure for the regular American is mostly infighting, some fluff piece or threats from other countries. It’s a bit interesting to see how it works but also scary since, you know… Military
It should be at the fact that they aren’t setting fire to everything, murdering politicians, billionaires, and their lackeys, and generally grinding everything to a halt.
Do you really think this would improve things?
I won’t deny that there are a lot of very serious problems and that progress is far slower than it ought to be. I also don’t think that wanton murder and anarchy tend to actually improve things very much - ask the victims of the Holodomor if the Russian Revolution improved life for them. Things can always be much worse. That doesn’t mean we have to accept the status quo, to be clear, but it is important to maintain a bit of perspective. “Grinding everything to a halt” also includes such useful things as food supply chains and having any job at all. Is it really that much of a surprise that most people wouldn’t be super eager to throw away everything they have and plunge the country (and by extension, world) into chaos just in a vague hope that the end result will be better? That’s not a small ask.
Do you really think this would improve things?
Do you like modern constitutional democracies over monarchies? You can thank people setting fire to everything, murdering politicians, billionaires, and their lackeys.
Do you like when workers have rights? You can thank people setting fire to everything, murdering politicians, billionaires, and their lackeys
Do you like civil rights? You can… well you get the idea
I’m not discounting that violent protest can work, and has worked in the past.
At the same time, ask the 20,000 people that were executed without trial or died in prison during the Reign of Terror if they think overthrowing the French monarchy was worth it. These things have costs, and that’s generally not a door I want to open unless things are getting very very bad. It’s easy to start calling for executions when you’re confident the gun won’t eventually be pointed at you, but historically, that’s not a very safe bet to make, because plenty of innocents die in these kinds of things.
Or you just convince yourself that anyone who dies simply must have deserved it. That’s not a judgement I feel comfortable passing.
These things have costs, and that’s generally not a door I want to open unless things are getting very very bad.
It’s easy to be fine with the way things are when you can be just comfortable enough hiding behind privilege. But sure, wait until things get worse, there are no time sensitive current threats to the existence of humanity anyway.
Maybe, but I think you’d find that most Americans, even young ones, wouldn’t actually want to open up Reign of Terror: American Boogaloo. Perhaps that’s privilege; maybe it’s Maybelline.
The very existence of humanity is not something that is under meaningful threat according to any climate scientists I’m familiar with - even if there will be very significant challenges and changes that will disproportionately affect vulnerable populations - but I’m more than open to any evidence of actual apocalypse if you’ve got any.
Reign of Terror: American Boogaloo? Is that the official name of US foreign policy?
Anyhow, let’s see how great and humanely the wait out and see strategy works when irreversible damage has been done and millions of displaced people show up, I’m sure it’ll all work out fine.
Unless you’re planning on picking up a gun yourself (in which case, best of luck with that), yes, I do think the more boring approach of slow incremental change is indeed what we’re kind of stuck with. It’s certainly not ideal or fair, and a lot of people will unduly suffer for it, but I’m skeptical that there’s the kind of pent-up political demand for more radical alternatives that you seem to think exists. From some recent Pew data, only about 1/3 of Americans see a pressing need to fully phase-out fossil fuels. I can’t imagine those people are exactly itching for literal terrorism.
It is curiously noted that you’ve casually moved the goal posts from “literal extinction of humanity” to “very challenging mass displacement”.
At any rate, this conversation has obviously stopped being productive for either of us, so I’m happy to leave things there.
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To any “patriot” who would tell these young folks to just leave the United States, I’d like to submit a preemptive YOU are the one’s who should be getting the fuck out. YOU are the ones who are un-American, YOU are the ones supporting a traitor to our country, and YOU are the ones fucking it up for everyone else by voting against not just your interests, but our interests as the not billionaire class. Hopefully, enough youth in this can be motivated to make us something to be proud of, rather than an embarrassment.
I’ll also add a preemptive “I have no fucks to give” to anyone who wants to try and shame me for not playing nice with these “patriots”. I definitely spend quite a bit of time trying to understand these people, but only in the hopes that a method to marginalize racists/traitors/bigots can be developed. You want to try to figure out how to “work with” these people, go right ahead. Not going to waste my time.
Signed: One pissed off veteran.
Yeah when I see god bless america signs it makes me want to put up a sign saying america be worthy of gods blessing. Since I don’t believe in god though it might send the wrong message
No, don’t export them! Maybe forced active service? Idiot company.
I find Patriotism incredibly arrogant and somewhat ignorant of the world around you. I don’t care where you’re from, I only care about decent individuals.
You are confusing patriot and nationalist.
A Patriot loves his country and tries to do what’s right for it, as in make it better.
A nationalist is a chauvinist, who believes his country is better than others, and deserves to have power over them. The nationalist is therefore also racist and xenophobe, and prefer isolation rather than cooperation with other countries.
I’m a patriot, but I realize my country has flaws, and some countries are better in some respects. But I still love my country.
Just wanna point out that these words don’t necessarily have those connotations globally. When I think of nationalism, I think of anti-colonialism. When I hear patriot, i think jingoist with flag on a pickup. It’s totally valid if you wanna use those words with those qualifications but if you happen to be talking to me that’s just how I would react to hearing it. Even if it turns out we see eye to eye on everything
Political ideologies can mean very different things in different countries/contexts. Republicans in France or the US are conservatives, broadly in support of the status quo. Republicanism in the UK, or late during the French Monarchy, is a much more revolutionary ideology, interested in upsetting the status quo with policies like electing a head of state. I think nationalist and patriot have similar relative meanings that reflect the nation one is from.
Also worth pointing out that every nationalist identifies as a patriot due to the negative connotations of the former.
Patriotism is supporting the state
Nationalism is supporting the people
Eh… If you live in a company that treats people fairly, is run by the people, for the people, takes care of the poor, and embodies liberty and justice for all, then that’s something that you can be proud to be a part of. But unfortunately those are just things they teach school children here, not things that the country actually does.
That would be correct if people would freely choose where they are born. But they don’t, so it doesn’t make sense.
It does also not make sense if you were born some place and then move to this “better” country: Instead of making it better you leave for somewhere that is already good. How would it ever get better if people just leave?
And those that actively work on making a place better are doing the good thing themselves, not the country. They should be proud of themselves instead.
Most people don’t have the power to change their country. Some people are actively persecuted, even to the point of death, by the governments of the countries they live in. I know a lot of refugees and they are all very proud Americans. They’re proud they escaped the country they came from, they’re proud to be a part of country that accepts them and gives them opportunity, and they’re proud of the freedom they have here. As a native born American I can’t say that I chose my country, even though I choose to stay, but I respect the feelings of the people who have, and understand why that is a point of pride for them.
The thing is that there is no country that really does that. I’m Finnish and while many things are a lot better, that has at least not been entirely true to this country as long as I have had some real concept of the world around me. At the same time, there is some pride not in as I am proud to be Finnish but I am a little bit proud of how much Finland has accomplished on that front. At least I am when I am not entirely pissed off by the majority of the country because of the shit it is doing.
I used to have no concept of pride in my country of birth and I don’t still see it as something to be proud of as I did nothing to end up here. But in the past decade, I have worked in places that have taught me how bad things really can be, especially to part of the population. It is a weird dichotomy to see the worst of your country and still see how it can be better than in many places. It really does give me whiplash in my own head.
I’m in the same boat. Even on this very comment chain I said our country doesn’t do those things and then in a comment to a reply I gave examples of how it actually does do those things. It’s a special gift and curse to clearly see the gradient, it isn’t all black and white.
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As a kid I had it hammered into my head by my grandparents that patriotism is the desire to improve (and maintain) the place where one lives.
I wish more people had that perspective. “Patriotism” as a description of blind devotion and themed outfits is pretty dumb.
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Along those same lines, I feel like there is an interpretation of being proud to be American that (used to?) align with what is meant when people refer to “pride of ownership” of a house or neighborhood. The desire to maintain and improve the standard of your neighborhood as something to inspire pride, not just “herp derp I am proud of where I was born”.
If your country was doing great, I could understand it. You’d be proud not of where you were born, but just how you and your fellow citizens have made your country great.
Problem is, America is very much not doing great.
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By that argument, there isn’t ever any pride to be had aside from personal forms, because even a multitude of 1 other isn’t completely knowable.
If a kid has good grades, but there’s a window of opportunity where the kid could be vandalizing things after school, your logic says their parent would be ridiculous for saying they’re proud of them, because you don’t fully know.
I’m not proud of America, don’t get me wrong, but it’s ok to be proud of one thing without omnipotence coming into play. Those that support big military have a great reason to be proud of America, and they can still be upset about the horrible education we give our kids. When pride is a buzzword it’s generic but when people actually feel pride it’s specific. Proud of your grades, proud of your maturity, proud of my nation’s healthcare, proud of my family’s cohesiveness, etc.
Being afraid to be proud, for fear of supporting or being associated with the wrong group, that’s defeatist talk.
A parent is either proud of their child because of what they accomplished in raising the child- or they are proud for their child because they care about their child and are happy they have accomplishments.
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Agreed, you shouldn’t be proud of your country, your city, your race, your sexuality, etc. I am only proud of things I’ve done- not what I was born into.
I think a lot of people are confusing “proud” with “glad”. I’m in the 35-54 range and I don’t think there’s much to be proud of anymore. And frankly I’m closer to embarrassed than indifferent on the subject given the progress we’ve lost in the last decade or so. But am I glad to be an American?
Sure, I’m glad I wasn’t born in Russia only to be a bullet sponge in an unjustifiable war.
I’m glad I wasn’t born in Afghanistan with the Taliban oppression.
I’m glad I wasn’t born in Syria during one of the longest and bloodiest conflicts in modern history.
I’m glad I wasn’t born to sift through cancerous e-waste or mine diamonds for a warlord in Africa.
I’m glad I wasn’t born into North Korea (self explanatory)
So, while I’m glad I wasn’t born under worse circumstances, I’m not proud that we’re directly and indirectly responsible for many of those circumstances.
But, I also don’t think it’s an unsolvable problem. We could make America a place to be proud to be from, but that’s a very long road from where we are right now and I fear that there’s also a lot of potential to get worse if the tinderbox is mishandled.And I’m glad to be an American
Where it’s not as bad as it could be
Where I’ll probably die from apple-pie-
Induced Type 2 Di’betes
And I’ll gladly sit down, my ankles hurt
Libruls are owned today
.
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sure you dont
Americans have not had it hard in a long time. No world wars have been fought on our soil. The wars we have been in since WW2 have not been very popular. I grew up gen X and we pretty much thought the world was going to end and that the previous generations handed us a pile of shit.
The kids now days look at all of us like a bunch of hypocritical ass hats. If I was a kid watching the shit adults are doing and talking about now, I would not be proud either. I would be embarrassed. I am embarrassed of what we have/are becoming. A lot of older people sit around and bitch about the younger generation but we are the ones that raised them. We are the ones not taking care of business like we told them they should. We are the ones babbling nonsense, disrespecting the law, doing all the things we told our kids not to do. Why the hell should they listen, or be proud or form the same values as we may have? We are literally showing them that none of this matters and then turn around and blame them for telling us all to fuck off.
A lot of older people sit around and bitch about the younger generation but we are the ones that raised them.
I believe that is a global problem, though. A lot of countries have massively aging populations. I feel like a youngster here in Germany, and I’m in my mid-30’s. Lots of old bastards telling my generation we are lazy and need to get off our asses. Sometimes I wish we could just take all these people and put them somewhere else so I don’t have to hear that shit anymore. :D
Millennial here, and I feel the same way. Every time a kid’s disrespectful, it’s very likely there’s a Millennial parent raising them that way.
This might be a little controvercial in american politics community (not so much under europeans but even here it kind of is) but there is no right way to be proud of the place you are born in! You can be proud of partular parts of your system, your society or similar but not the location, that’s always fucking stupid!
You should only be proud of the things you’ve done… Same with shame
I’m proud of your mom.
Ribbit
American healthcare is far too overpriced and inefficient, but in a lot of ways it is more humane to patients(before the bill comes of course) than at least the country I live in now. Hospitals are notorious for horrible living conditions, difficulty getting to see a doctor, etc. A relative of mine had to sneak in food because her mom was only getting basically 2 slices of bread and apple sauce twice a day. Also, they basically had patients on chamberpots that were overflowing. This is in the capital city of a fairly well of European country.
It’s just messed up that we have the resources to support universal healthcare and it would actually save us a shit ton of money, but we can’t have it…
Yeah, but unfortunately every country everywhere has significant failures. It’s just easiest to point out those of the biggest economy.
That sounds like a lot of American hospitals tbh. Also like practically every nursing home over here.
I don’t know about all of course, but from my family who’ve been in US hospitals and my friends who have worked in US nursing homes they seem somewhat better. Although I’m sure there are plenty that are bad- what I’m talking about is a wide spread problem across hospitals in the country.
We give around a billion a year to Israel because after they pay for universal healthcare and free tuition for college they don’t have enough to buy a bunch of shit from our “defense” manufacturing industry…
America has been full blown capitalist for decades now, our government cares more about corporation’s profits than the well being of Americans.
You mean we give them money so they can buy from stuff from our military industrial complex? Basically meaning that we give money to companies that make weapons and tons of money? The same kind of corporations that use said money to lobby Congress for things that favor them? You’re definitely right that our government cares more about corporations profits than us.
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The wives of my friend group unanimously decided they straight up weren’t taking part in July 4th until their bodily autonomy and right to care is restored. It sucked not having a cookout but I can’t say I blame them in the slightest.
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Imagine being so woke you circle jerk yourself out of a bbq.
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In this context this is the best definition i could find in the 30 seconds i was willing to look for it. I could’ve just said it but in the past redditors said I’m the only one to follow that definition and that’s just not true.
woke
The act of being very pretentious about how much you care about a social issue
http://woke.urbanup.com/12923996
This particular ud definition happens to have an equal number of thumbs up as down and if 5 years old.
The act of being very pretentious about how much you care about a social issue
It’s almost like people care a great deal about issues that directly affect them
It’s not pretentious to want to own your own fucking body
I didn’t say that.
They asked on this context. Then what is your context of “woke” in reference to protesting a holiday celebrating a country that took away a right for women?
You literally said: “In this context, the act of being very pretentious”.
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Boycotting 4th of July celebrations is a silly way of protesting the government. That’s all I’m saying. It’s their right, but i think it’s goofy.
Ok, but what do you mean by “pretentious”? Who gets to decide how important an issue is to someone else? Pretentious means that a person is acting like an issue is more important to them than it actually is. Who decides how important it is to a person that they’re living in a country where police can kill an innocent person and not face a jury over it? Who decides how important it is to a person that the women in their lives can get raped and will be forced by the state to give birth to a child that is the result of the rape?
Your definition of “woke” is built upon a third party determining that someone else’s concern with an issue is not as important as they “pretend” it is. Who gets to decide that, and under what authority?
The perspective was “geez it sure feels dumb celebrating ‘independence and freedom’ while sisters throughout the state are being actively oppressed.”
They know a BBQ is a small thing, they know 12 fewer people watching fireworks won’t make a difference, and they’ll keep volunteering, protesting and voting accordingly… but when you’re struggling to bubble up any feelings of patriotism and failing to find enjoyment in the spirit of the holiday, why participate?
I am very proud to say that I’m not proud to be an American. Being proud of your country is a path toward genocide.
You can have pride in your country without being stupid about it.
I’m proud to be an American. I’m not proud of everything America does.
I’m proud that we were the first to land on the moon. I’m proud that we (eventually) helped win WWII over the Nazis. I’m proud of parts of our art and culture, Asimov, (early) Game of Thrones, most of the best games in the world.
I also protested the Iraq war. I think our ultra-capitalist, corporate worshipping ways have been a negative influence on the world.
I’m proud of Al Gore’s call to action on climate change. I’m not proud we haven’t done much about it.
I’m proud we have the potential to get off planet, self-sustaining colonies going. I wish we’d push harder for it.
You can find reasons to be proud of your country without endorsing everything they do.
How dare you come here with nuance
Half of that shit happened before you were born and none of it was done with your help. I’m not American and my argument is not targeted towards Americans. No person should be proud of the coincidence of geography.
Exactly 1 thing this person said happened before I was born. We aren’t all 21.
Alright, touche. I still feel that this kind of nationalist pride is a very slippery slope.
America is a continent lol
Well, y’know, we were an explicit apartheid state for 80% of our history, and were founded on the back of slavery and genocide so brutal it served as the blueprint for Nazi Germany… The more alarming part is that anyone is proud of our nation.
I’m not young and I’m really not proud. It’s honestly embarrassing. Trump was a disgrace and ruined any sense of pride I had.
Honestly: For all his many, many, many faults, he was still a massive improvement over Bush junior. His insurrection and the way he handled Covid was terrible, but the Iraq-war was worse and unforgivable.
I’ll have to disagree on that one. Bush sucked but he was better. The left and right weren’t at war with each other, we could have conversations and discussions. Now you cannot.
I agree with you.
I had a discussion with a coworker just before a company meeting during W’s 2nd campaign and I expressed how terrible I thought he was and even said I couldn’t understand how or why anyone would vote for him… My coworker told me that he voted for him, thought he’d been doing a great job, and planned to vote for him again… And that was all there was to it… No animosity, judgement, or hard feelings between us … We just never discussed it again.
No, they both sucked but in very different ways.
Bush weakened many of our institutions and lead us into two forever wars. And a huge recession in which he did diddly squat to get us out of it.
Trump is a traitor and embraced a Russian psyops campaign against the American public while getting his face full of shit.
Yeah, if we keep having this tendency to say someone wasn’t too bad once someone worse comes around, we’ll just end up thinking Trump was great by comparison to whatever crappy politician we have as president in 20 years.
Bush was worse, due to Iraq, but I still wouldn’t say Trump was a massive improvement. He was still an imperialist, like Bush, and almost started a war with Iran
We know the extent of the damage Bush caused. We won’t fully grasp what Trump has ruined for a generation
