Yep, thats what this is
Yeah, I dunno why OP put quotes on it.
My guess is OP is being sarcastic because progress to many people means more highways & cars. More construction and development.
I wish we had more of this kind of progress near me (Colorado USA).
Been in Colorado for the past week or so. You guys are a lot further ahead than Illinois is. Lots more bike paths and lanes, better traffic control that doesn’t result in stop and go movement, overall a lot more green space in your shopping centers and in human spaces, also lots more walking areas.
Don’t beat up your state too much, it’s fantastic compared to mine. :'c
I’m from So. IL originally and been to CO 4 times. Colorado is so much better in my opinion. People biking and jogging everywhere, everyone I met was really nice, like went out of their way to help my friends and I nice. Obviously that’s not everyone there, but it was the experience I had. Overall, it’s probably my favorite of the states I’ve been to and hope to go back, maybe permanently, someday.
I’d love to be a gatekeeper saying “we’re already full, turn back around”, but I’m a CA transplant myself. Personally, I’m looking to leave myself: too cold most of the year, and it’s getting really $$$. YMMV
Well, it certainly beats how it was before, but there isn’t less traffic now – they just put it in a tunnel.
Germany’s public transit is fantastic too tho
thank you, but are you sure? It’s pretty shit except for a few cities.
Compared to other countries, yes. And that’s not even comparing it to the US, which would be like kicking someone lying on the ground.
Try riding a train in rural France, outside the 5 TGV lines, for instance, and you’ll pray for Deutsche Bahn. Ever been to the UK?
But we could have much better PT if Germany weren’t the world’s greatest car exporter by far and the ministry of traffic deep in the pockets of automobile makers, that’s true as well.
Think about it this way, it’s even worse in big parts of the world.
The road and cars still exist, they just put it underground
This is exactly what happened. They just needed the roads AND the view. The amount of cars is still the same, if not more.
Welp, still better than road on the lakeside.
So, as a not very smart man. Wouldn’t underground roads be better? I feel with it being underground it’d be easier to manage pollution and install some things to fight it.
Underground roads are crazy expensive. You need something to hold up the earth and anything else above it. There’s issues with water leaking in. Piping will have to go around it. If it breaks down somehow it will take longer to repair. It’s only really an option if the detour would be a lot longer or within urban areas for the extra space it frees up.
Or if you know, having greener spaces and roads underground are actually better for climate change. I’m not sure if this would help in that matter or not, but I think it’s a possibility. Not everything is about our made up concept of money.
What’s better for climate change is less cars on the road, not underground roads. If we are going to be digging these expensive tunnels in every city they should be for subway systems. That would be a substantially better use of the funds and would be a good step towards reducing the emissions of a city. This is all assuming that we stop subsidizing car ownership so heavily of course.
The entire process of building and repairing roads is pretty carbon intensive due to the amount of concrete involved.
Yes, replacing surface roads with greenery is good for climate change, or more locally for reducing the heat island effect.
They likely also redesigned the roads to reduce stop and go traffic, with all the extra pollution that creates.
I doubt it would affect pollution significantly. It’s not like both ends of the tunnel aren’t open to the air. It would definitely locally displace it so it’s not distributed across the above ground length of the road, but the same amount more or less (minus whatever adheres to walls) is still coming out of either end.
Underground tunnels also have the danger of fires rapidly spiraling out of control and in the past have killed dozens of people, and that was before electric cars became common. I would not want to be in a tunnel when a Tesla’s battery explodes.
I’m not saying this has no advantages, but for the trouble and cost it seems like a train would be better.
I think it’s better from a polluting point.
Nothing underground generates oxygen, but moving the roads from above to underground gives more “it’s free real estate” to grow grass and trees, like in the second photo, which generates oxygen and stores carbon. It’s not the best thing like suppressing the cars all together, but it’s better than the first picture.
Yeah, I completely forgot about the whole fire thing.
When yku say it like that. It makes more sense. It’s a shame we don’t have super efficient ways to convert exhaust gasses into healthier gasses. But yeah, if it’s just a short tunnel, the entrance and exits would just not funnel it right. I wonder if really long tunnels would be better. Maybe being able to use the entrances with a system to input clean air and force the exhaust through vents.
And I wonder if those fire suppression systems that starve the fires of oxygen could be something that could be useful? But that’d require automated doors to seal the tunnel, and then if someone is trapped on there, the fire is the last of their issue. Unless there were refugee points that also seal, but then you’ve gotta make sure everyone’s in them. I wonder if some form of scanner could be used to allow humans in. But then there’s that thing where a fire has been starved, but then gets a sudden burst of oxygen and it becomes explosive. I forgot what it’s called. I’m sure someone actually smart could brainstorm it better.
I feel it’s more likely they don’t understand proper usage of quotation marks like that. They probably think they give emphasis; I see it all the time.
It’s so backwards. Making this stretch of coastline walkable means more people show up, and if businesses realize this potential then they can capitalize. Makes sooo much sense
Fun fact this is actually the Rhine river that runs sort of ⅔ of the way through Düsseldorf, similar to the Thames in London or the Seine in Paris.
The other bank is much more residential and a little high end so it’s not really a gathering place for the population, whereas the bank shown in the picture is 2 blocks from a tram line that runs parallel to the river and runs into the heart of the CBD making it an extremely approachable body of water and pedestrian strip.
On the weekends, the city holds public events to draw people to gather on this bank like food fares, carnivals, concerts. It’s always packed on the weekends and generates a shit ton of foot traffic for all the pubs and restaurants in adjacent streets.
I had no idea all this was covered in highways just a few decades ago, making the city more walkable was an amazing choice. If you’ve never been to Düsseldorf before or don’t know anything about it, it is definitely one of the highlights of Germany once you’ve had your fill of all the war sites. Extremely liveable city without feeling overcrowded, and just a stones throw from the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, and France.
Colorado used to be a lot more beautiful.
I wish Colorado would seriously put forth a passenger train between Pueblo to Denver or even Fort Collins.
Utah has one from Provo to Ogden and it’s amazing. Beats driving in the psycho traffic.
Boulder resident here, I would kill for a train between here and Denver.
Yep, lame.
Obviously just being grammatically correct by putting the title in quotes!
Luckily for op they can edit the title, so please do @tictac2@lemmy.world
He was just making a point"."
Wondered the same.
He’s thr CDU in Berlin. They want to reverse those two pictures.
Sarcasm.
It’s a dream come true far as I’m concerned.
I haven’t found anyone adding the detail that the photo is a bit deceptive.
The road is still there, it was just moved underground. It surfaces at the bridge in the background.
It’s definitely better, but the car traffic is still there, just hidden.
Source: I live a couple minutes from where the photo was taken
Are you suggesting this is not progress? Because this is honestly amazing.
What’s the point of water if you can’t chill by the water
All my homies like chilling by the water
edit: oh wait - it actually exists?!
Hell yeah my homies are here! 💦 💦 💦
This title is under a few layers of irony, there are similar pictures floating around of green spaces converted to highways in the US with the same title, OP is suggesting the European version actually is progress
It’s a worldwide phenomena. The “Big Dig” is a great example of urban space reclaimed from above-grade highways.
I remember as a kid hearing this vague ideological warfare around it. The Boston Science Museum had a big exhibit on it, as a kid I learned nothing about it. Then it was lamented for being wasteful spending - and only now do I hear about how it was meant to give us back urban areas.
Sure did. I’ve lived in RI my whole life save for when I lived just barely into MA about 5 years ago.
Pardon the Reddit link, but as soon as I saw a before and after a few months ago, I was awestruck.
That’s surprising to me. I remember at the time, NBC Nightly News and PBS Newshour (my family’s news diet in the 90s) did stories about it, and they both definitely mentioned reclaiming city space as one of the benefits.
I think the Big Dig, while it ended up costing several times what it was supposed to, will go down in history as one of the best highway projects of its era. It also proved infrastructure naysayers wrong. A lot of people insist that any highway projects always just induce demand, resulting in even more congestion, but the Big Dig did nothing of the sort. To this day, 30 years on, Boston traffic is still not as bad as it was pre-Big Dig.
A lot of people insist that any highway projects always just induce demand, resulting in even more congestion, but the Big Dig did nothing of the sort. To this day, 30 years on, Boston traffic is still not as bad as it was pre-Big Dig.
Induced traffic does not mean that traffic on a specific place inevitably goes back to what it was before a new highway. It means that total traffic, including old and new infrastructure, always goes up if the total road capacity goes up.
Do you think the total car traffic in the Boston area today is greater than it would have been had the Big Dig not been built? If yes, the ‘infrastructure naysayers’ were correct.
Of course, this means new highways can be locally beneficial, for example when they are used to divert car traffic from a city center. But they still deepen the overall car dependency. Investing in rail-bound transportation while imposing heavy fees on car traffic into the city would likely be a better use of resources.
Do you think the total car traffic in the Boston area today is greater than it would have been had the Big Dig not been built? If yes, the ‘infrastructure naysayers’ were correct.
It’s probably gone down, actually, at least in per capita terms. Boston’s population is a lot bigger than it used to be, so that has to be taken into account.
Keep in mind, the Big Dig actually reduced the total number of highway ramps, which is part of why it increased traffic flow. And by reclaiming neighborhoods from elevated highways, it reconnected areas. You can easily walk places that were not possible before.
But they still deepen the overall car dependency. Investing in rail-bound transportation while imposing heavy fees on car traffic into the city would likely be a better use of resources.
Boston is far from car dependent; it’s probably one of the worst cities in America for drivers, and best for cyclists and pedestrians.
It’s probably gone down, actually, at least in per capita terms. Boston’s population is a lot bigger than it used to be, so that has to be taken into account.
The comparison is between today and ‘today but without the highway’, not between today and before the highway was built. If the population increase is greater with the highway there, that’s still part of the induced demand.
Boston is far from car dependent; it’s probably one of the worst cities in America for drivers, and best for cyclists and pedestrians.
A city being “bad for drivers” is not a great indicator of it not being car dependant. Cities in the Netherlands are probably the most walkable and bikable on the planet, and also great to drive in because there are hardly any cars.
I think there should be some shading structures around the walkway.
Maybe some self-building ones that also act as a carbon sink.
Har har, what I meant was having a shaded overhead thing every couple of yards right along the actual walkway next to the water.
Assuming its mostly concrete having shading could help break up heat absorption and help reduce heat radiation.
Maybe some self-building ones that also act as a carbon sink.
Pretty sure they are referring to trees here.
The main walkways and the bike lane are actually located in the shade provided by the line of trees.
You know people drink water too right? It’s not just a backdrop for your selfies lol
Not me, I’m a purist. I drink only hydrogen and oxygen.
Why the quotes? It looks much better.
I highly doubt OP knows what quotes mean here
“Sarcasm”
Bro where did u get that username
I uh… typed it in and it was available?
“your opinion”
“is shit”
Why the “”? Getting cars out of cities to improve quality of life is a major progress.
The cars are still there, in massive numbers. You just can’t see the tunnel they built between those two pictures. It’s right beneath the feet of the pedestrians.
At least they can´t kill cyclists and pedestrians this way and the emissions get somewhat contained. Of course this is only a compromise but on the way to car free cities it might be a useful intermediate step before we can actually get rid of carbrainitis.
‘emissions somewhat contained’…?
Sure that ain’t ‘carbon monoxide tunnel?’
Maybe it has chimneys like the London underground used to when it was steam powered
Sounds NSFW…
do we have /c/dragonsfuckingcars and /c/carsfuckingdragons yet?
c/beatmetoit
I buy extra cars for fun.
I’m sorry for you - you obviously have no clue what real fun is.
That still seems better though. Less noise, safer and more usable space.
If you’re there, can you hear them if you put your ear to the ground?
Lol does it matter or are you just curious?
Just curious, haha.
I’ll check for you next time I pass through there on my bicycle.
But we can pretend! And that’s what’s important!!!
why the quotation marks?
Maybe it’s an art installation titled “Progress”
Maybe he meant the upper picture is “progress”
Rage bait
This is actual progress. I’d love for places to have more green
I agree ! We unfortunately are cutting trees in favor or roads in india !
You don’t need more roads, you need better quality ones :)
Why more roads?
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Yeah, it will probably work out if all 1.4 billion people all drive alone in a car, occupying at least 15m² each. Needs one more lane, but then traffic will be solved!
I don’t care what you think, but cutting more trees in favor of streets is just never a good idea in this day and age.
More trees, more happiness
Less cars, more trees, more happiness.
Why did you put the title in quotes
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who hurt you?
Correct. The far left is as vain as the far right.
you think it’s vain to want visible nature?
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I’m sure the people of Duesseldorf are so thankful to have you as their road white knight.
Define logical city planning? Is a walkable, green area more desirable than an overgrown road or not?
Is traffic the end-all-be-all to city planning?
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The traffic hasn’t gone, it’s in a tunnel below the promenade.
By your own definition “logical city planning” is best done with a good and well integrated public transportation network and the spaces thus freed by having fewer cars being repurposed for uses with proven health benefits compared to roads … which just happen to be green spaces as there are actual proven benefits for human mental and physical health, both from the greenery and the reduction in noise an particulate polution when big roads with heavy traffic are removed.
Favoring individual cars in a urban environment is actually worse in pretty much every metric: not just mental and physical health but even timewise as better public transportation means way less time wasted in traffic jams, because of all the cars removed from the road and because paradoxically more roads incentivise more cars, so new/bigger roads solve traffic jam problem for a while and then eventualyl it get as bad or worse than before only now there are even more cars, hence more people, stuck in traffic, so more public transportation means shorter commuting times even when you reduce the number/size of roads.
I get the impression that your logic in thinking of more roads for cars as “logical city planning” comes from never having experienced living in an urban setting with a proper well integrated public transport network or widespread use of cycling for short commutes, which is a critical blindspot in knowledge when claiming to understand urban planning.
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lol… jesus.
After WW2 cities in NRW have been rebuilt with cars and cars only in mind. You’ve got major roads with 6 lanes crossing right through city centres and residential areas. Traffic is killing people. Roads in favor of public transport makes people buy cars if they want to go anywhere. More cars need more roads. It’s an endless cycle and results in hostile living environments. We need less cars. A lot less.
“Logical city planning” for you does not include planning a city that people enjoy living and breathing in. Just one that cars dominate more every year.
Yep, you’re American alright.
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Yawn. We get that you love fascism
because the cars are still there just OutofSight
c/unnecessaryquotes
No quotes needed this is literally progress
Ah yeah they should’ve just done the American thing instead and bulldozed the whole strip of town to put in a 20 lane wide interstate with a Bucees and Walmart/s
Should have bulldozed the whole Rhine
They basically did that.
What people call „Rhine“ is a heavily straightened and channelized artificial water road.
Especially in the 19th century they cut off many loops and bends to make it more accessible for ships, to make the land useable and to get rid of flooding (narrator: „it didn’t work“):
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinbegradigung
(don’t have an english article, just look at the pictures)
The road is still in the same place, but it’s a tunnel nowadays.
Stop it! I can only get so hard
America has done almost the exact same thing as in this photo: https://images.app.goo.gl/i6UN6uCZWBjUqNL57
I think this is my first time seeing the “/s” on lemmy. And I really hope it doesn’t follow users here. We fully understood the sarcasm without it. It was honestly so much more a statement with ironic wording than it was even sarcasm.
I feel like we’re better than this. We can’t complain about Hollywood and advertising dumbing everything down to the level they think we need and then turn around and spoon feed each other the most basic forms of speech.
You might be able to easily spot sarcasm, but not everyone is blessed with that ability. Many autistic people, for instance, struggle to detect sarcasm. And comments being text only makes it harder. “/s” is an accessibility tool and implying that using these tools is “dumbing down” communication is honestly a very shitty move.
Beyond autism, that /s has become all the more necessary these days in the wake of this huge wave of anti-intellectualism. Outside of private circles, it’s so hard now to tell the difference between absurd sarcasm and the genuinely ignorant takes some people proudly share, there’s too much of an overlap between the two lol
Autistic person here, yeah I can’t read tone for shit through text sometimes, and especially online you never can tell if and when someone’s being serious.
Don’t worry, he didn’t mean it, he was obviously being sarcastic because no reasonable person actually dislikes the /s.
Yeah, right. /s
I’d argue that jokes not being written for everyone to understand/enjoy isn’t a matter of being wrong. It’s part of the entire subjectivity of comedy.
Idk. That was very obviously sarcastic. I wouldn’t care about the opinions of those who took it seriously.
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It’s sometimes impossible to detect sarcasm from just text, that’s why Poe’s law exists. You may be good at understanding sarcasm and satire, but some people aren’t and putting /s is making sure that everyone understands instead of just you.
I feel you on the dumbing down part though, but I think sarcastic comments are not a form of media that must be left only to be enjoyed by the people who are “better than this”.
I mean… They don’t have to be left to anyone. Is it really that hard to ask for or wait for more context before popping off? If I misunderstand sarcasm I just say oh oops I misunderstood my bad and move on with my day. It’s such a non-issue.
I think it’d be cool if Lemmy had an option to select tone the same way you can select language, and an option to hide tone by default
You forgot the /s
I agree with you but its sorta funny given peoples reaction to the quotes which im like pretty sure was not intended to invert the words meaning.
Why is there open and close quotations? Isn’t this progress?
Because when the word “progress” is used, it is usually a loaded term with some specific connotations. The quotes indicate this is a reference to the word “progress”, not a use of the word “progress”, and it’s intended to draw your attention to the fact that this change, while clearly a positive and desirable one, contrasts strongly with what is usually meant when a person says it.
Nice explanation, jerkface
BMW sold 10% more cars than the year before.
This is change. Progress is subjective.
…what?
What’s with that?
Yes. It’s progress indeed.
The new look is sexier.
I mean look at the curves of that beach!!
I started writing a comment of confusion because I thought I was on the mildly infuriating community not the mildly interesting community.
Overall yes this is wonderful progress that more cities need to adopt
Most cities just can’t really afford it
yeah, car infrastructure is expensive and they should just get rid of it entirely.
Fuck cars
Well, if you insist…
By replacing it with more expensive car infrastructure? That’s what happened in this picture
No, by replacing it with public transportation and human-scaled spaces. Well, leaving one small part of it for service vehicles and people who absolutely need to go buy car if there is no better option.
Sure, I agree, but you do realize where the highway went in this picture, right? It’s still there…
Edit: Cease fire! Friendly fire!!! FrieNDLY FIIIIREEEE!!!
Sure, that wehicle part might as well live underground, if the country has enough money for that.
They actually can’t afford not to. Walkable cities improve the economies of cities because people are actually able to get to stores on roads that would otherwise be swamped with cars. It improves health and safety as well.
Why scare quotes? I lived in Düsseldorf back in '90 (go alts - that was the name of my school team, and yes it was sponsored by Alt bier 🍺… different times), it’s always been one of Germany’s more clean cut, upmarket cities, but this picture makes me want to go back and check it out again.
Then again, I’m a queer transfem and I’m in BERLIN, THE QUEER CAPITAL OF THE WORLD. Düsseldorf is in the last instance just meh.
Cologne is pretty gay and not far away. Come by during CSD!
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Sweetie did you read the part about being transfem? I
dodrink coke, not beer ;)
Why not visit Hamburg? It’s like a cool version of Berlin
I grew up next to Düsseldorf. I freaking love this city. Wouldn’t it be so expensiv i would live there.
Because it is a magnet for anime fans, i early came in contact with queerness and different worldviews. Düsseldorf still has a big connection to art and due to figures like Joseph Beuys the art community is still pretty progressive. I went to university there and the campus had a progressiv Atmosphere there as well.
But on the other side the city is full of rich and conservativ people. A weird contrast. I would say Düsseldorf is educated while cologne is more open and welcoming.
