I just don’t get how Lemmy is going to act as a proper replacement for Reddit.
I understand the basic concept of Lemmy and the Fediverse, and people are touting the concept of it being federated and not centrally controlled, but it is an absolute mess and nobody seems to have an idea about what to do with it.
How are communities going to grow if there isn’t at least some form of central management. Other than there being an underlying framework that connects the servers, they’re all just doing what they want.
Outside of the underlying framework, there’s no ‘guidelines’ or consistency. The servers have random names, and the main Lemmy.ml is telling people to register elsewhere.
How is this going to bring in a wider audience if people are being directed to lemmy.fmhy.ml, sopuli.xyz, or sh.itjust.works?
What is the purpose of the Fediverse when forums for niche interests already exist on the internet?
Does it make sense to have something like a ‘sports’ server that has communities for soccer, NFL, basketball, MMA? But then how do you get a consistent naming scheme that lets people know it’s part of the fediverse?
Maybe Lemmy could work as a replacement, but it seems like it needs a ‘flagship’ server with a group of people maintaining it to set an example. Then other servers that cover more specific areas, such as sports, can be set up and potentially work closely with that flagship group.
If this doesn’t happen, then I can’t see how this doesn’t just fizzle out.
P.S. I’ve also compared two different Lemmy servers and looked at the same post in a community, and there are different numbers of comments on each where they haven’t synced up…
I also wanted to post this to the main Lemmy community, but as I had to register via a different server, I’m not able to access that community from the server I’m using for some reason…
The same way IRC servers and forums grew back in the 2000s. Centralized services are something that only started showing up in the early 2010s.
“How are communities going to grow if there isn’t at least some form of central management. Other than there being an underlying framework that connects the servers, they’re all just doing what they want.”
No one has ever said the Fediverse will be as easily accessible as Reddit, I think it’s pretty much impossible because of the lack of centralization. But in my opinion, this just doesn’t matter. The only solution would be, as you said, would be some form of central management. It is impossible to have a platform which both fixes the issues Reddit has experienced indefinitely AND has central management. Any social platform which cedes some kind of control, or even just legitimacy, to a centralized source (regardless of how the implementation starts out), will eventually turn into another Reddit. (Assuming the growth is there).
From my point of view the only downside to how Lemmy operates vs. Reddit is the slight learning curve of understanding Federation. Once you understand the concept, your concerns about the platform “fizzling out” would be moot. If you understand Federation, how is it confusing that your different sports communities are in different instances? Each community is distinct in its values, rules, and moderators, they get to choose where to exist, and the alternative would be impossible without granting control to a single meta-instance.
“but it seems like it needs a ‘flagship’ server with a group of people maintaining it to set an example. Then other servers that cover more specific areas, such as sports, can be set up and potentially work closely with that flagship group.”
I couldn’t disagree more, and this is one of my main gripes with Mastodon. Over reliance on a flagship instance only serves to shoehorn people into Lemmy without actually understanding how the platform works. Take the top three English-speaking mastodon instances:
- mastodon.social: 878k
- mastodon.cloud: 229k
- mastodon.online: 164k Source
mastodon.online was created by Mastodon as a secondary official instance, next to the original mastodon.social. When the Twitter influx happened, the vast majority of users signed up for mastodon.social because it was the “flagship instance”. Not as many user’s would have chosen mastodon.social if they actually understood how Federation worked, instead of just blindly signing up for the flagship instance.
Also, about communities about the same topic possible being fragmented across multiple instances is a pro of Lemmy, as long as we foster a culture of combining communities together who agree, while retaining the option to split off to another instance.
TLDR; Understanding how Federation works > Pandering to new users with a flagship instance
No one has ever said the Fediverse will be as easily accessible as Reddit, I think it’s pretty much impossible because of the lack of centralization.
I don’t think this is necessarily true. Right now Lemmy is very open with what it is and touts the federation openly. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but I think using clever user experience design to make it appear less federated might help.
As an example, currently there are communities dedicated to essentially the same topic across multiple instances. This isn’t a bad thing in and of itself, as these communities might operate with different ideals or goals. However, if say there was a functionality for cross-instance community linking, where communities that share the same idea and goals can link together as a sort of combined community, that might serve to give the users a more cohesive and uniform experience.
If then say, the community ends up diverging, a difference in opinion rising and the communities choose to split off, unlinking them ought (in theory) be just as simple as linking them, allowing the communities to once again go separate ways.
I meant that Lemmy will never be as accessible as reddit because of reddit’s centralization; every community is 1 of 1.
But I agree with you, community linking would be a good idea.
As for the clever user experience, what about an instance of lemmy dedicated to this? It combines different lemmy communities into one within the UI, giving a more Reddit like experience. The name can imply it’s a simple experience, like lemmy.madeeasy or something.
I wouldn’t use it, but some people would probable prefer it! (And find it easier!)
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Lemmy is not supposed to replace reddit. Lemmy is it’s own thing that has already existed for years now. The benefit of Lemmy over individual forums is the interconnectivity of separate communities and being able to view content from multiple communities in one single feed. You can subscribe to communities and view all your subscribed community posts in one feed. Theres also the All sort on the main page, which essentially functions as Lemmy front page. Its also, as you said, not centrally controlled. So if one part fails the rest can continue as normal. That makes it pretty robust. But it isn’t meant to replace reddit, a massive social media platform with millions of users.
That makes sense, it just seems that a lot of people are expecting Lemmy to replace Reddit, when it isn’t up to that task and isn’t what it’s designed for.
If people want it to be close to Reddit, then I think a ‘flagship’ server is the only option, but it seems like even that is fitting a square peg into a round hole, and isn’t something that anyone is taking responsibility for.
it just seems that a lot of people are expecting Lemmy to replace Reddit, when it isn’t up to that task and isn’t what it’s designed for.
Exactly, and that’s totally fine. Unsatisfied users will leave and content ones will remain.
How are communities going to grow if there isn’t at least some form of central management. Other than there being an underlying framework that connects the servers, they’re all just doing what they want.
Why would “central management” be necessary for communities to grow? Email doesn’t have any central management, and yet people are quite capable of building mailing-lists and other services on top of email. While mailing-lists may be “old-school” they still work pretty darn well; I’m on lists for my college alumni, for various interest groups, etc. that all get active discussions.
I think with the influx from reddit, which gathers a lot of technical users (which I think are also among the first users to migrate), I can see lemmy getting a lot more contributors in the coming days/weeks.
Among the features I’d love to see happen, some would also address your concerns about the lack of centralization :
- Community federation : this would make it possible to “fuse” communities from different instances. The admin of a community would be able to add other communities as “subcommunities” and all posts from subcommunities would show up in the “main community’s” feed. If the relationship is reciprocal, the two communities would “sync” with each other in some kind of way.
- “multicommunities” : users would be able to create and share lists of communities that span multiple instances
- Better community discovery across instances
I think communities “fusing” like you mentioned would be a good idea, but I still think one server needs to stand out from the rest as a place for people to join.
Most people in this thread seem to be content with Lemmy not being Reddit though, and I just don’t think they realise how quiet it’s going to be if new users trying to leave Reddit aren’t snapped up ASAP.
Personally, if I go to a community and there are 5 posts a day with only a few comments, then that seems utterly pointless and I won’t be coming back. I imagine some people will give me shit for that and say that I should be the change I want to see, while also being the exact same and likely giving up on Lemmy after a few weeks.
I don’t think a “main” instance is something we want. If one instance completely takes over the whole federation, we will have another reddit debacle in a few years.
While Decentralization is not a silver bullet against monopoly (just look at what gmail did to e-mails), centralization seems to always kill independence once platforms reach a critical mass
To be honest, I think a main server isn’t just required to build a decent user base, I think it’s inevitable no matter what.
That being said, the benefit I see from Lemmy is that if people are unhappy with the main server, it’s an easy switch to something else. And not completely migrating to an entirely different platform.
Why would a main server be required if users can fluently interact across Instances? (which, imo, is an area where lemmy has the most margin for improvements)
I want Lemmy to succeed, I want to be optimistic about it as an alternative to Reddit, but OP is correct, and we need to be honest about this very simple fact:
The Reddit we knew and loved is gone, and that’s a sad, tragic thing, and there likely won’t be a 1:1 replacement for a long time, if ever.
It’s okay to admit to ourselves that this whole situation sucks, because it absolutely does. That doesn’t mean that we can’t enjoy Lemmy and other federated things like it, and it doesn’t mean that federation doesn’t have advantages over Reddit, but let’s be honest: most of us were happy at Reddit, using our favorite 3rd party app (like Apollo), and we wouldn’t be here if the admins weren’t happy to kill what we once loved.
All we can do is try to make the best of it.
This reminds me of when digg blew it self up and everyone was complaining that Reddit wasn’t like digg. In time something good enough will come along if lemmy isn’t it. In the meantime I’m enjoying myself here.
