I understand the international nature. But English is very much the language of the world and outside of Lemmy I have found zero sources to support a 19th century use of Libertarianism or Libertarian in any formal manner. I’ve seen a lot of Mutualist and Anarchist.
Unless you have sources where they actually label themselves libertarians, as in “call me a libertarian”, (like they do for anarchist) then all the of internationalism in the world doesn’t matter.
There are writers and thinkers from the early to mid 20th century that claim libertarianism. And that’s generally an attempt to unify the 10 different kinds of anti statist leftists that exist at the end of the 19th century. Both the pages available for Libertarian Communists, and Libertarian Socialists identify roots in the 1800’s, but do not claim their ideology actually started in the 1800s. And it only takes a look at the writers they claim originated them to see they were writing from about 1910 to 1950.
This isn’t some semantic thing. Some people want to believe libertarianism came from the first international itself, but from what I’ve read Proudhon never identified as a libertarian.
Understanding where ideologies have been and where they’re going is really important. So people trying to muddle the waters to claim some kind of moral superiority is dangerous and a sign of someone bound more by rhetoric than facts.
Okay, so I think we all agree on the “facts are more important than rethorics” point, especially here among fellow leftists (? I think you are) where we can take time to explain things.
So I really am confused as to where the “some kind of moral superiority” part comes from. I looked back at the previous comments and really saw nowhere where I could have been claiming moral superirity. If this is my tone that seemed condescending, I apologize.
Anyway, since you asked for examples of use of the libertarian label, I propose you a bit of the “french” history of the word Libertaire during the second half of the 19th century :
First occurence in a writing is 1857, by Joseph Déjacque, in a letter against Proudhon. It is used to differentiate from “liberal”, which was considered by Déjacque as not enough attached to liberty. In details, he opposed the Proudhon’s conservatism on the matter of sexuality and gender.
Déjacque then creates a newspaper that he calls Le Libertaire. This newspaper is published in New York, so that is a good example of the international aspect of philosophy. It’s not in english, however it is tied to the US. I roughly translated a part of the first article : “[Le Libertaire] has one superior ideal : the Liberty, in every matter and for everyone. It does not accept any other authority than the authority of progress. In every matter and for everyone, it seeks the abolition of all slavery in all of its shapes, the emanciaption of all flesh and of all intellect.”
This title was used by 3 others newspaper before 1900 : in Algiers (1892), in Brussels (1893) and Paris (1895). The last version was published by Sébastien Faure, who is an important anarchist in France at that time.
The word has been used around anarchist theories by various authors : Charles Malato associates it with Bakounin and anti-marxist communism in 1891, Elisée Reclus stands against the use of “libertaire” though “some of us are prone to call themselves that way” in 1896 and Kropotkine that says in 1896 that he “believe[s] that modern socialism is meant to take a step toward libertarian communism”.
During the villainous laws of 1893, the word libertaire seems to have been vastly used as a synonym for anarchist, to escape censorship. It seems there has been a debate among anarchists on the use of this term, as we saw with Reclus before.
Now, this seems enough to me to say that left libertarianism originates in the second half of the 19th century, where it is mixed amongst various theories, though mostly anarchism and anti-authoritarian communism.
If we disagree, I think we in reality do not disagree on the fact but on the definition of one or more words in the sentence above, OR that the fact that it’s in french is still blocking you. I will try to prevent such disagreements but please point out what does not satisfy you if I can’t accomplish this myself.
If we disagree on the “originates”, maybe it’s because you consider that without a kind of manifesto such as the Communist manifesto, a movment cannot be said to have “originated” or to be “born”. It is strange to me to consider that a philosophy cannot originate before an official manifesto, because not all philosophies have such a clear start (socialism for example), and communism itself started before the communist manifesto.
If we disagree on the “second half of the 19th century”, I’m not really sure why
If we disagree on the “mixed amongst various theories”, I can understand that you would search for a clear “libertarian” philosophy, that is clearly separated from anarchism, communism and socialism. I would argue that it is of course impossible to find such a thing, since it is still nowadays deeply tied to anarchism. I would add that anarchism and communism and socialism are themselves mixed together (or at least that anarchism is mostly communism which is a variation of socialism). If you still think that if it cannot be separated from anarchism, it should not be considered another philosophy, then just consider “left libertarianism” to be synonym for “anarchism” and everything should be fine.
If we disagree on the french part, I would just say that we cannot skip a part of anarchist history just because it’s not in english : it existed and it should be possible to talk about it in english as well. If we disagree on that point, I would be very curious to hear why.
Sorry for this very long and late response, I tried to think of most possibilities we could disagree, because I really am confused as to why we are not on the same side since we seem to use the same methods.
I think we have different standards for the start of an ideology. I’m looking for it’s broad use as a self identification. I freely admit it has it’s roots in the 1800’s, and I admitted above the word was in some use all the way back through the 1400’s with similar meaning. Although it was mostly used against the church until the 1700s. It certainly isn’t just one among many. That was the problem the writers were trying to solve in the early 1900’s when they started identifying as Libertarian Communist/Socialist. They were unifying anarchism, council communism, workerism, and a few others. So the idea wasn’t to be one among many but to bring those ideas into a tent. That’s what was different about the 1890’s and the 1910’s. It went from a word getting thrown around to a specific ideological label.
I didn’t really mean you when I talked about people claiming moral superiority. I was just venting that people are trying to claim it was a coherent ideology contemporary to the very beginning of communism by twisting things around. I also don’t care that you took a day to respond, that just means you put real thought into a conversation that should have some real thought.
Okay, the disagreement on “originate” definition explains a lot of the misunderstanding. I still am convinced that ‘originates’ does not mean a clear and widely spread theory, but only a coherent one.
And to my eyes, having people calling themselves or other with the name of the theory, referring to all forms of communism opposed to authoritarianism as it is still today and was in the 20th, is coherent and probably more coherent than the socialism was for example.
Therefore I would claim that it was a coherent ideology contemporary to the second phase of communism (it did not exist at the very beginning of communism, before the communist manifesto and the communist ideas before, we can agree on that point. But it precisely emerged when tensions arised around the authoritarian part of first wide spread branch of communism which is marxism, this is what I called second phase, so starting around the first internationale).
Thanks a lot for your clear and constructive discussion, it feels very good to be able to pinpoint where the tension point is rather than just listing arguments in vain.
I understand the international nature. But English is very much the language of the world and outside of Lemmy I have found zero sources to support a 19th century use of Libertarianism or Libertarian in any formal manner. I’ve seen a lot of Mutualist and Anarchist.
Unless you have sources where they actually label themselves libertarians, as in “call me a libertarian”, (like they do for anarchist) then all the of internationalism in the world doesn’t matter.
There are writers and thinkers from the early to mid 20th century that claim libertarianism. And that’s generally an attempt to unify the 10 different kinds of anti statist leftists that exist at the end of the 19th century. Both the pages available for Libertarian Communists, and Libertarian Socialists identify roots in the 1800’s, but do not claim their ideology actually started in the 1800s. And it only takes a look at the writers they claim originated them to see they were writing from about 1910 to 1950.
This isn’t some semantic thing. Some people want to believe libertarianism came from the first international itself, but from what I’ve read Proudhon never identified as a libertarian.
Understanding where ideologies have been and where they’re going is really important. So people trying to muddle the waters to claim some kind of moral superiority is dangerous and a sign of someone bound more by rhetoric than facts.
Okay, so I think we all agree on the “facts are more important than rethorics” point, especially here among fellow leftists (? I think you are) where we can take time to explain things.
So I really am confused as to where the “some kind of moral superiority” part comes from. I looked back at the previous comments and really saw nowhere where I could have been claiming moral superirity. If this is my tone that seemed condescending, I apologize.
Anyway, since you asked for examples of use of the libertarian label, I propose you a bit of the “french” history of the word Libertaire during the second half of the 19th century :
Now, this seems enough to me to say that left libertarianism originates in the second half of the 19th century, where it is mixed amongst various theories, though mostly anarchism and anti-authoritarian communism.
If we disagree, I think we in reality do not disagree on the fact but on the definition of one or more words in the sentence above, OR that the fact that it’s in french is still blocking you. I will try to prevent such disagreements but please point out what does not satisfy you if I can’t accomplish this myself.
Sorry for this very long and late response, I tried to think of most possibilities we could disagree, because I really am confused as to why we are not on the same side since we seem to use the same methods.
I think we have different standards for the start of an ideology. I’m looking for it’s broad use as a self identification. I freely admit it has it’s roots in the 1800’s, and I admitted above the word was in some use all the way back through the 1400’s with similar meaning. Although it was mostly used against the church until the 1700s. It certainly isn’t just one among many. That was the problem the writers were trying to solve in the early 1900’s when they started identifying as Libertarian Communist/Socialist. They were unifying anarchism, council communism, workerism, and a few others. So the idea wasn’t to be one among many but to bring those ideas into a tent. That’s what was different about the 1890’s and the 1910’s. It went from a word getting thrown around to a specific ideological label.
I didn’t really mean you when I talked about people claiming moral superiority. I was just venting that people are trying to claim it was a coherent ideology contemporary to the very beginning of communism by twisting things around. I also don’t care that you took a day to respond, that just means you put real thought into a conversation that should have some real thought.
Okay, the disagreement on “originate” definition explains a lot of the misunderstanding. I still am convinced that ‘originates’ does not mean a clear and widely spread theory, but only a coherent one. And to my eyes, having people calling themselves or other with the name of the theory, referring to all forms of communism opposed to authoritarianism as it is still today and was in the 20th, is coherent and probably more coherent than the socialism was for example.
Therefore I would claim that it was a coherent ideology contemporary to the second phase of communism (it did not exist at the very beginning of communism, before the communist manifesto and the communist ideas before, we can agree on that point. But it precisely emerged when tensions arised around the authoritarian part of first wide spread branch of communism which is marxism, this is what I called second phase, so starting around the first internationale).
Thanks a lot for your clear and constructive discussion, it feels very good to be able to pinpoint where the tension point is rather than just listing arguments in vain.
I agree this was much more like a friendly conversation over a beer, which is how I usually discuss political ideology.