- cross-posted to:
- news@kbin.social
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- news@kbin.social
- world@lemmy.world
Content Warning: Graphic descriptions of sexual assault
A two-month investigation by The Times uncovered painful new details, establishing that the attacks against women were not isolated events but part of a broader pattern of gender-based violence on Oct. 7.
Relying on video footage, photographs, GPS data from mobile phones and interviews with more than 150 people, including witnesses, medical personnel, soldiers and rape counselors, The Times identified at least seven locations where Israeli women and girls appear to have been sexually assaulted or mutilated.
Four witnesses described in graphic detail seeing women raped and killed at two different places along Route 232, the same highway where Ms. Abdush’s half-naked body was found sprawled on the road at a third location.
And The Times interviewed several soldiers and volunteer medics who together described finding more than 30 bodies of women and girls in and around the rave site and in two kibbutzim in a similar state as Ms. Abdush’s — legs spread, clothes torn off, signs of abuse in their genital areas.
Yes, unfortunately. They always say ‘I’m not an antisemite, I’m just anti-Zionist’, but in practice their beliefs are indistinguishable.
I have never seen anti-zionism beliefs similar to antisemitism. In fact, if someone mentions anti-zionism, it’s an indicator that they’re talking specifically about the governmental practices of Israel.
People equating anti-zionism to antisemitism are usually being antisemitic themselves by tying Israel’s actions to all Jews.
Nazis have always substituted ‘Israelis’ or ‘Zionists’ for ‘Jews’ when they need to hide in public. The fact that you think you’ve never seen it only indicates that you aren’t very good at detecting it. It also means that you’re carving out an enormous space for Nazis to operate here with your approval that requires almost no effort.
That’s a really convenient excuse to disregard anyone critical of Israel as nazis. Sorry, but I’m not going to condemn someone of being a Nazi just because. Nazis also really like the American flag for some reason too. But I don’t assume everyone with an American flag is a Nazi.
The vast majority of people who are anti-zionist are not Nazis. I hope you realize that because otherwise you’re going to have a really hateful, skewed world view.
Did I say “anyone critical of Israel”?
I said that Nazis have always done that. When Nazis do it, they aren’t being “critical of Israel,” they’re still Nazis doing Nazi shit. I’m telling you that the world is more complicated than you’re allowing, and you’re insisting that I must represent one of only two possible simplistic realities. I’m sorry the world is more complicated than you’d like.
If the only thing you’re doing in assessing whether something is criticism or racism is seeing whether it’s framed as about Jews or Israelis, you’re carving out space for Nazis to operate here. It is trivial to repackage antisemitism as anti-Zionism. Racist blood libel is still racist blood libel when you change the labels. Insisting that any statement is non-racist if it references Israel gives cover to Nazis. You’re not doing enough. Anti-racists who are also critical of the Israeli government should be horrified at the thought of Nazis being allowed to launder racist bullshit through their liberation movements.
I think your inferring a lot of shit I didn’t say and I think you’re assuming a lot about me.
One can be anti-zionistic and not be a Nazi. That doesn’t mean that I’m blind to bad faith discourse. But I’m also not going to condemn people with reckless abandon. In the same way that most who believe in Israel’s right to exist don’t approve of Israel’s genocide. But some do. And some will even go so far as accuse any criticism of Israel as antisemitism. And that feels a lot like what you’re doing. I don’t know if that’s your intention, but that’s really what it sounds like.
“Insisting that any statement is non-racist if it references Israel gives cover to Nazis.”
THIS sounds like a really convenient excuse to disregard “anyone critical of Israel.”
I’m going to assume the best out of you, and assume you don’t mean it that way. But I think you should take your own advice. Because you’re giving a lot of space for Islamophobes to operate.
I’m assuming that you’re a decent person who cares about Palestinians and hates Nazis.
I’ve seen far more people saying that people are saying that than actual people saying it. In fact, the few times I’ve looked at specific claims about public figures they’ve said the opposite and it’s been a false assumption that they’re denouncing all criticism of Israel. It’s probably really only true in large numbers on the Israeli far-right and maybe Christian Fascists (who are lying anyway). Almost no one thinks that criticism of Israel is inherently antisemitic.
Here’s your statement:
That statement is so broad that it captures genuine critics of the Israeli government… and some Nazi shit. It’s so broad that I think you’re (very unintentionally) giving cover to Nazis who are framing their racism in terms of Israel. You then said that the Nazis probably aren’t many of the people talking about Israel. To which I’ll say (and I’m sure you’d agree): any Nazi shit is too much Nazi shit.
You’re saying that it’s false that criticism of Israel is inherently racist, and I agree with you. The other extreme, that it’s impossible to be racist so long as you mention Israel, is also false. That’s especially important now because Nazis know that they can smuggle racist shit into public discussions. It’s more important to assess statements and arguments on their merits than just seeing if something is “Israel-coded” because Nazi scumfucks are around doing Nazi shit pretending to not be Nazis.
I definitely have on here. There are a lot of people that say they’re anti-Zionist that then go on to blame all Jews. Or say the ones in New York are the good Jews.
So you disproved your own claims? That’s a novel debate tactic. Not sure it’s going to work out though.
I’m not sure which claim you’re referring to.
I believe you.
Anti Zionism is Antisemitism. Full stop. I’ve seen self hating Jews even try to curry favor by agreeing with the bigots but ultimately if you don’t have Israel, you’ve got millions of dead Jews and 10/7 just reinforces that for anyone who has half of a brain.