Woah hold on there, it’s not like the Bible (that they point to as the source of authority e.g. that is why what Israel does is “good”) says “the worker deserves their wages”, or “treat the immigrant and poor among you as your own”, or “whatsoever you do to the least of these, it’s like you are doing it directly to me”, or even more foundational basics like “show kindness to people”… right?
The effects of brainwashing are quite strong. We need to find a way to get even stronger if we want to overcome.
I mean that is how America was first founded, but it definitely was not ONLY those. The real enemy (mostly) isn’t people, but ideas. And even framing the issue as “us” vs. “them” smacks more of conservative divisive thought that distracts from finding real solutions.
The hard part is that it is SO much easier to destroy than to create. And occasionally you need to do both.
“For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.”
Also Revelation 3:15-16 where Jesus says that He will spit lukewarm people out of His mouth, lamenting that they were neither hot nor cold.
Also James 2:19 citing how even demons “believe in God”, and tremble in fear as a result.
Also Matthew 18:6 better a millstone be hung around someone’s neck and be thrown into the depths of the sea than to lead a little one stray.
Also 2 Tim 3 having the outward appearance of godliness but denying the power thereof.
Also Matthew 24:24 about false teachers.
And there are TONS of verses saying to never add to the Bible - not Christ and vote Republican, or even simply vote along with Pro-Life policies (to the exclusion of all else). In fact there are several verses about who to judge, and also who to not judge - hint: judge the Christians but do not set up to be judges of the secular e.g. 1 Corinthians 5:12 the extraordinarily simple & plain language:
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
I wish most Evangelical Christians could - or rather would - read the Bible, rather than cite it as the reason/justification for the most heinous actions of murder, avarice, abuse, and so on. Ignoring everything that Trump does while inventing the most trivial of excuses to investigate Hunter Biden (fine… investigate him if we must, but in that case shouldn’t we also investigate Trump’s family too? especially since they were not merely family but he had them working inside the actual WH?).
Hey I have another verse btw: “Test everything against what you know to be true”. I stand with atheists, yes and some Christians too, and Muslims, and whoever it is that will actually be decent to one another. Whatever words are used, the actions define the person.
I was with you until you had to go and make it about politics.
Matthew 7:1-5: “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
True Christianity is not about using the Bible to whack others over the head with for misbehaving, it’s about working on yourself first and foremost. A very important part that too many people seem to forget is that Jesus did not just talk the talk, he walked the walk.
Judging a politician fairly and accurately is an extremely difficult job because we do not know them personally, and almost all the information we have about them has gone through many levels of filters (journalists, editorial boards, our social circle, etc.) which often tend to either leave out certain details or amplify and exaggerate them based on whether they agree with this politician or not. And just like the politician themselves, each of the people in each of the layers is a sinner, just like you and me.
So by all means, vote for the guy you think best represents your interests, but be careful about condemning others for choosing someone else because they don’t share the same judgement. They might know something you don’t know, or they might just be confused and propagandized, but if they’re you’re neighbors, it’s far more likely that you might one day come to depend on them than it is for your favorite politician to become dependent on you personally.
I used to think as you did. However, keep reading forward in Matthew, all the way to the end of the chapter (and beyond!) - in particular verses 15–20 are extremely relevant, I promise you, whether you want to call it “politics” or whatever, they are the literal words of Jesus and worth considering, imho:
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
You seem to be telling me never to judge, or at least to be careful doing so. But we ARE commanded to judge! Not the “world” - i.e. what right do I have to tell some woman that she cannot have an abortion? again, 1 Corinthians 5:12 explains that she is to be left to God to deal with, not me - but our “chosen leaders”, THOSE are PRECISELY the people that we are COMMANDED to judge!? (and not, “if we feel up to it”, it is the command that is given so… I guess we better GET up to it then, as in if we need a year or ten of training, let’s get busy doing that then?)
Verses 21-23 also make a hella good point as well:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
I watched a video in 2021, I can never find it again but I think it may have been in Montana or some neighboring state, and in it a literal, currently-sitting iirc, Senator was speaking behind the literal pulpit of that church, it having been handed over to him for that purpose. He said that COVID was not real, and that although he was young, he had talked with 90+ year old senior Senators and thus THEY KNEW what was what, and that it was all a media hype - thus they should only ever pay attention to Fox News that told the “real story”, while every other station was lying to them. I bet it made sense to that congregation b/c they were a rural, not densely populated area, and 2020 passed leaving them relatively unaffected. However, this was a couple weeks prior to the Delta wave hitting… and he was telling them to ignore the factual news. I will never know how many people died as a result of this one person spreading such blatant misinformation. If he has since repented and stepped down from his position of authority, then that’s wonderful… but it still would not go back into the past and change what he did, nor does it abrogate the responsibility of that pastor who handed over that pulpit, meant to convey the authority of the Word of God, but which was used that day to spread political (Worldly) propaganda (and falsehoods at that even!). i.e., it is not me bringing politics into this, I am stating that politics has already been brought into this by many wayward churches. Just look at the statistics of how many young people are leaving religion behind in droves… and for good measure, b/c much of that “religion” is false, with much having been added, and some rather important bits taken away as well.
“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
I pray that you will consider these words of God. You do not have to justify yourself to me - I am not your keeper - but you WILL be called to an account, and I would like you to receive blessings and be rich rather than admonishment and be poor. That is the measure that we ALL are held to, hence why I stated it - if it were not so then I would not have said it.
Also, may I point out from the very words that you chose to quote … that passage of Matthew 7:1-15 never says to not remove the speck from your brother’s eye. It says to FIRST remove the plank, then SECOND, after you can see clearly, remove the speck. Remaining in our ignorance and simply “not judging” anyone was never an option - both the plank and the speck have no place in His Kingdom. Also, please do not skip over the final verse that I left you with: “Test everything against what you know to be true”. I do not ask you to believe ME, but I am also saying to not believe a politician who, from ther fruits, have shown themselves to be of the world rather than of God. If they were confused… well, again, these are not MY words, but the very words of scripture condemns such a one: again Matthew 18:6 better a millstone be hung around someone’s neck and be thrown into the depths of the sea than to lead a little one stray. Maybe they should have gone to school a bit more, or apprenticed underneath someone for a bit longer, but when you take on a LEADERSHIP role, and for heaven’s sake especially when you choose to stand behind a literal PULPIT… that is supposed to mean something? And it seems that it does, to God at least, although free will I suppose means that we get to choose if we will go along with Him or not. i.e., 1+1=2, not whatever we want it to be, not even if we pray for it to be otherwise while asking God to set aside His very own Will that He created the universe to implement. Somehow even the atheists know that, and are afraid to go against it, while Evangelical Christians these days have spun up a nice story to absolve people of any responsibility for wrong-doing, if we only “meant well”, or perhaps “didn’t know”. But God isn’t Santa Claus, and hell isn’t fiction - this shit is life and/or death and moreover, of the most important meanings of those words even: eternal.
that passage of Matthew 7:1-15 never says to not remove the speck from your brother’s eye. It says to FIRST remove the plank, then SECOND, after you can see clearly, remove the speck.
Yes, that is correct, and that’s what I was trying to tell you, to judge yourself first and foremost, and only once you’ve found yourself without fault, to go on and judge others. Seeing how you mislabeled this as “Matthew 7:1-15” when it is really only verses 1-5 (and I labeled it correctly, I double-checked), perhaps there’s still some work you oughta do on yourself, just saying ;)
As for Matthew 18:6, again, that’s a reminder for YOU (and me) to be careful about choosing our words so we do not lead anyone, especially children, astray with any false logic or arguments. It’s saying that God’s punishment for those who do this is more severe than having a millstone hung around your neck and be thrown into the sea, so there is no need for US to add to it. See also John 8:7 (“Let him who is without sin cast the first stone”).
As for the false prophets, I don’t think it’s too far fetched to just assume that ANY politician is more likely than not to be one of them. After all, it seems that the majority of them is mostly in the game for personal gain, as they invariably all seem to get rich off it while you and I pay the bill via our taxes. Has any of them ever kept their promises? Or isn’t expecting them to solve your problems for you kinda like… picking grapes from thornbushes?
Just to be clear, I’m not claiming I have all the answers, I am just trying to give you another perspective (see Proverbs 27:17). But the more I read the Bible, the more I see it to be about personal responsibility than anything else. Yes, most of the people in almost ANY church are sinners, THAT’S WHY THEY’RE THERE. As Matthew 9:12 says, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.”
If we are being pedantic about the origin of passages, which has some value, I note that John 8:7 did not appear in the earliest written (Greek) manuscripts - that does not mean that it is false, but in any case it should awaken us to take extra care and precaution in interpreting anything that we see, even from the Bible. For instance, one thing that it does NOT mean (probably?) is that all law & order in any (Christian) society is forbidden. You can judge someone for being a murderer, or a rapist, or thief, etc. - there IS a need “for US to add to it”, in that if we do not, then our faith in the Bible is false (James 2:17-20), and it is only by working that out, with fear & trembling (Philippians 2:12), that the faith that we claim to have is shown to be real (Luke 18:10-14).
Note I am not advocating for anarchy - people train for many years to catch suspected criminals, prosecute and defend them, and yes to actually judge them, then carry out a sentence. In the case of a court of law, the proper person to render judgement is a “judge”, possibly with the aid of a jury, whereas in the case of a politician, the proper person to render the judgement is the voter… and maybe voters should likewise train for at least months if not multiple years in order to be prepared? There are minimum standards to operate a motor vehicle, b/c it is quite a dangerous tool if mishandled, and various restrictions (e.g. vision, or if someone misbehaves and loses their license), but for whatever reason there are almost no standards whatsoever to be able to vote. And yet operating an entire nation is even more complex, and mishandling that can have even more drastic consequences than e.g. a drunk or otherwise distracted driver.
Likewise, what are the standards to become a preacher? For an established religious denomination there can be an extensive process of oversight, but for the many non-denominational churches that process is often short-circuited, sometimes eliminated altogether but even when present, are often much less. I have an atheist friend who decided to register himself as a preacher, so that he could sign someone’s marriage certificate. It takes much less effort than I think most people relaize:-P.
Since WWI-II days, the Western world it seems has gotten used to government oversight. We don’t chemically test our own food each & every time we purchase and consume it - as unregulated industries such as drug cartels do - b/c we trust that the bad cases will be filtered out. But this is not done for religions, unless they cross a very firm line. And spreading misinformation, e.g. about a deadly virus, has so far not been considered something to be regulated. At which point it is on each of us individually to have to do our own due diligence, as was already true for picking an appropriate pastor & church community to listen to.
But no, I don’t think expecting politicians to solve problems is at all like grapes. Police, firefighters, schools, roads, bridges, and the like are all examples of something that if you had to do all of that individually yourself, would be an enormous burden. Heck, Trump created a vaccine for COVID - that is not something that any average American is capable of doing, even those with multiple PhDs and MDs to boot. It is an enormous task that we we pay enormously large groups of such people to be able to perform, using also enormous resources (someone has to grow the rabbits used for testing, if those are used, and someone has to grow the feed used to keep them alive, and so on and so forth). Politicians serve a function - if they did not then we could simply get rid of them, but it is not so simple as that. And btw even if we could, and barely notice a difference in our daily lives, there are still outside forces to consider - e.g. if Putin decides to take over America, the entirety of the Russian army (& navy, and air forces, and more) is not something that each individual person is capable of fighting off, one-by-one. We NEED government, no matter how many people (e.g. Reagan) crack jokes about otherwise. Otherwise we will become slaves. And while being a slave is not sinful, nonetheless Jesus said that He came to bring Life, Life to the Fullest, so I kinda doubt that He wants that for us. And therefore, if there is one politician who wants to give us all up as slaves for Putin’s war machine, and there is another politician who at the very minimum does NOT want to do that, then no I do not think that they are equivalent at all. This is a logical fallacy - the appropriately named “false equivalence”.
So yes, I see your perspective - I think I understand it better than you do, unfortunately. But we are in total agreement that if we KEEP reading, if we KEEP searching, and KEEP testing what we read vs. what we KNOW to be True, then we will eventually find the answers that we need.
Lastly, I will leave you with I Timothy 3:1-10 - yes churches are to be attended by sinners, so you can be LGBTQIA+whatever and so long as you are searching for answers, it’s all good (although there are some relevant verses such as expel the actual wicked, unrepentent evil-doers among you, and 1 John 3:9 seems relevant) - but LEADERS are to be held to a higher standard. How many politicians do we find to be unfaithful, temperate, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, and the like? And if they fail, it is our responsibility then as their literal bosses to vote them out, rather than continue to vote to keep them in. How much damage is being done by, let’s pick on Marjorie Taylor Greene for a moment, the people who continue to vote for her, thus inflicting her upon the entire nation as one of our preeminent leaders, capable of e.g. shutting down the entire government when it is time to vote for a budget, and expected to weigh in on important and highly weighty matters like Israel vs. Hamas (which let’s not even get into to, it’s just too deep)? I am glad that you read the Bible. I just wish that others would too. As you said, it’s not merely a tool that is fun to whack people up the backside of the head with (although… that could be fun too, I suppose - should I try it sometime? :-P \s), but it is also meant to be an instruction manual for life that should be actually followed, not merely something for lip service to be paid to (again verses such as Luke 18:10-14 and 1 John 3:9). Here’s an analogy: if someone came at me with a scalpel, I might be worried? Unless they had an MD, and a reason to do so, and my consent. Context matters. Likewise, I have zero beef with people just living their lives however they want to live - but when they step up to be LEADERS, e.g. by voting, then their decisions impact me, and that’s when I start having more of an opinion. And especially when they reveal themselves to be hypocritical, citing the Bible but using it as a club to whack me upside the head with it, while ignoring what it plainly says inside of it, that’s when I might even rise to complain.:-P
I hope I offered some interesting perspectives to ponder in return. Thank you for a respectful conversation.
Those things are true, but the average Christian or for that matter anyone who doesn’t own a house can’t give a house to someone else. It’s the rich who need to be forced to care for others, the poor often already give out of their lack.
A LEADER is the one in charge. Behind the wheel of a car, that means the driver - so e.g. if someone is driving drunk, then yes we blame them, not necessarily for killing someone when they plough right over them, but earlier than that for getting behind the wheel in the first place.
An entire nation is a heck of a lot more complicated to operate than a motor vehicle.
Woah hold on there, it’s not like the Bible (that they point to as the source of authority e.g. that is why what Israel does is “good”) says “the worker deserves their wages”, or “treat the immigrant and poor among you as your own”, or “whatsoever you do to the least of these, it’s like you are doing it directly to me”, or even more foundational basics like “show kindness to people”… right?
The effects of brainwashing are quite strong. We need to find a way to get even stronger if we want to overcome.
They’re called guns
I mean that is how America was first founded, but it definitely was not ONLY those. The real enemy (mostly) isn’t people, but ideas. And even framing the issue as “us” vs. “them” smacks more of conservative divisive thought that distracts from finding real solutions.
The hard part is that it is SO much easier to destroy than to create. And occasionally you need to do both.
“For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.”
Ephesians 6:12
Precisely.
Also Revelation 3:15-16 where Jesus says that He will spit lukewarm people out of His mouth, lamenting that they were neither hot nor cold.
Also James 2:19 citing how even demons “believe in God”, and tremble in fear as a result.
Also Matthew 18:6 better a millstone be hung around someone’s neck and be thrown into the depths of the sea than to lead a little one stray.
Also 2 Tim 3 having the outward appearance of godliness but denying the power thereof.
Also Matthew 24:24 about false teachers.
And there are TONS of verses saying to never add to the Bible - not Christ and vote Republican, or even simply vote along with Pro-Life policies (to the exclusion of all else). In fact there are several verses about who to judge, and also who to not judge - hint: judge the Christians but do not set up to be judges of the secular e.g. 1 Corinthians 5:12 the extraordinarily simple & plain language:
I wish most Evangelical Christians could - or rather would - read the Bible, rather than cite it as the reason/justification for the most heinous actions of murder, avarice, abuse, and so on. Ignoring everything that Trump does while inventing the most trivial of excuses to investigate Hunter Biden (fine… investigate him if we must, but in that case shouldn’t we also investigate Trump’s family too? especially since they were not merely family but he had them working inside the actual WH?).
Hey I have another verse btw: “Test everything against what you know to be true”. I stand with atheists, yes and some Christians too, and Muslims, and whoever it is that will actually be decent to one another. Whatever words are used, the actions define the person.
I was with you until you had to go and make it about politics.
Matthew 7:1-5: “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
True Christianity is not about using the Bible to whack others over the head with for misbehaving, it’s about working on yourself first and foremost. A very important part that too many people seem to forget is that Jesus did not just talk the talk, he walked the walk.
Judging a politician fairly and accurately is an extremely difficult job because we do not know them personally, and almost all the information we have about them has gone through many levels of filters (journalists, editorial boards, our social circle, etc.) which often tend to either leave out certain details or amplify and exaggerate them based on whether they agree with this politician or not. And just like the politician themselves, each of the people in each of the layers is a sinner, just like you and me.
So by all means, vote for the guy you think best represents your interests, but be careful about condemning others for choosing someone else because they don’t share the same judgement. They might know something you don’t know, or they might just be confused and propagandized, but if they’re you’re neighbors, it’s far more likely that you might one day come to depend on them than it is for your favorite politician to become dependent on you personally.
I used to think as you did. However, keep reading forward in Matthew, all the way to the end of the chapter (and beyond!) - in particular verses 15–20 are extremely relevant, I promise you, whether you want to call it “politics” or whatever, they are the literal words of Jesus and worth considering, imho:
You seem to be telling me never to judge, or at least to be careful doing so. But we ARE commanded to judge! Not the “world” - i.e. what right do I have to tell some woman that she cannot have an abortion? again, 1 Corinthians 5:12 explains that she is to be left to God to deal with, not me - but our “chosen leaders”, THOSE are PRECISELY the people that we are COMMANDED to judge!? (and not, “if we feel up to it”, it is the command that is given so… I guess we better GET up to it then, as in if we need a year or ten of training, let’s get busy doing that then?)
Verses 21-23 also make a hella good point as well:
I watched a video in 2021, I can never find it again but I think it may have been in Montana or some neighboring state, and in it a literal, currently-sitting iirc, Senator was speaking behind the literal pulpit of that church, it having been handed over to him for that purpose. He said that COVID was not real, and that although he was young, he had talked with 90+ year old senior Senators and thus THEY KNEW what was what, and that it was all a media hype - thus they should only ever pay attention to Fox News that told the “real story”, while every other station was lying to them. I bet it made sense to that congregation b/c they were a rural, not densely populated area, and 2020 passed leaving them relatively unaffected. However, this was a couple weeks prior to the Delta wave hitting… and he was telling them to ignore the factual news. I will never know how many people died as a result of this one person spreading such blatant misinformation. If he has since repented and stepped down from his position of authority, then that’s wonderful… but it still would not go back into the past and change what he did, nor does it abrogate the responsibility of that pastor who handed over that pulpit, meant to convey the authority of the Word of God, but which was used that day to spread political (Worldly) propaganda (and falsehoods at that even!). i.e., it is not me bringing politics into this, I am stating that politics has already been brought into this by many wayward churches. Just look at the statistics of how many young people are leaving religion behind in droves… and for good measure, b/c much of that “religion” is false, with much having been added, and some rather important bits taken away as well.
I pray that you will consider these words of God. You do not have to justify yourself to me - I am not your keeper - but you WILL be called to an account, and I would like you to receive blessings and be rich rather than admonishment and be poor. That is the measure that we ALL are held to, hence why I stated it - if it were not so then I would not have said it.
Also, may I point out from the very words that you chose to quote … that passage of Matthew 7:1-15 never says to not remove the speck from your brother’s eye. It says to FIRST remove the plank, then SECOND, after you can see clearly, remove the speck. Remaining in our ignorance and simply “not judging” anyone was never an option - both the plank and the speck have no place in His Kingdom. Also, please do not skip over the final verse that I left you with: “Test everything against what you know to be true”. I do not ask you to believe ME, but I am also saying to not believe a politician who, from ther fruits, have shown themselves to be of the world rather than of God. If they were confused… well, again, these are not MY words, but the very words of scripture condemns such a one: again Matthew 18:6 better a millstone be hung around someone’s neck and be thrown into the depths of the sea than to lead a little one stray. Maybe they should have gone to school a bit more, or apprenticed underneath someone for a bit longer, but when you take on a LEADERSHIP role, and for heaven’s sake especially when you choose to stand behind a literal PULPIT… that is supposed to mean something? And it seems that it does, to God at least, although free will I suppose means that we get to choose if we will go along with Him or not. i.e., 1+1=2, not whatever we want it to be, not even if we pray for it to be otherwise while asking God to set aside His very own Will that He created the universe to implement. Somehow even the atheists know that, and are afraid to go against it, while Evangelical Christians these days have spun up a nice story to absolve people of any responsibility for wrong-doing, if we only “meant well”, or perhaps “didn’t know”. But God isn’t Santa Claus, and hell isn’t fiction - this shit is life and/or death and moreover, of the most important meanings of those words even: eternal.
At least, that’s my two cents:-).
Yes, that is correct, and that’s what I was trying to tell you, to judge yourself first and foremost, and only once you’ve found yourself without fault, to go on and judge others. Seeing how you mislabeled this as “Matthew 7:1-15” when it is really only verses 1-5 (and I labeled it correctly, I double-checked), perhaps there’s still some work you oughta do on yourself, just saying ;)
As for Matthew 18:6, again, that’s a reminder for YOU (and me) to be careful about choosing our words so we do not lead anyone, especially children, astray with any false logic or arguments. It’s saying that God’s punishment for those who do this is more severe than having a millstone hung around your neck and be thrown into the sea, so there is no need for US to add to it. See also John 8:7 (“Let him who is without sin cast the first stone”).
As for the false prophets, I don’t think it’s too far fetched to just assume that ANY politician is more likely than not to be one of them. After all, it seems that the majority of them is mostly in the game for personal gain, as they invariably all seem to get rich off it while you and I pay the bill via our taxes. Has any of them ever kept their promises? Or isn’t expecting them to solve your problems for you kinda like… picking grapes from thornbushes?
Just to be clear, I’m not claiming I have all the answers, I am just trying to give you another perspective (see Proverbs 27:17). But the more I read the Bible, the more I see it to be about personal responsibility than anything else. Yes, most of the people in almost ANY church are sinners, THAT’S WHY THEY’RE THERE. As Matthew 9:12 says, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.”
Take care and be well, my friend.
If we are being pedantic about the origin of passages, which has some value, I note that John 8:7 did not appear in the earliest written (Greek) manuscripts - that does not mean that it is false, but in any case it should awaken us to take extra care and precaution in interpreting anything that we see, even from the Bible. For instance, one thing that it does NOT mean (probably?) is that all law & order in any (Christian) society is forbidden. You can judge someone for being a murderer, or a rapist, or thief, etc. - there IS a need “for US to add to it”, in that if we do not, then our faith in the Bible is false (James 2:17-20), and it is only by working that out, with fear & trembling (Philippians 2:12), that the faith that we claim to have is shown to be real (Luke 18:10-14).
Note I am not advocating for anarchy - people train for many years to catch suspected criminals, prosecute and defend them, and yes to actually judge them, then carry out a sentence. In the case of a court of law, the proper person to render judgement is a “judge”, possibly with the aid of a jury, whereas in the case of a politician, the proper person to render the judgement is the voter… and maybe voters should likewise train for at least months if not multiple years in order to be prepared? There are minimum standards to operate a motor vehicle, b/c it is quite a dangerous tool if mishandled, and various restrictions (e.g. vision, or if someone misbehaves and loses their license), but for whatever reason there are almost no standards whatsoever to be able to vote. And yet operating an entire nation is even more complex, and mishandling that can have even more drastic consequences than e.g. a drunk or otherwise distracted driver.
Likewise, what are the standards to become a preacher? For an established religious denomination there can be an extensive process of oversight, but for the many non-denominational churches that process is often short-circuited, sometimes eliminated altogether but even when present, are often much less. I have an atheist friend who decided to register himself as a preacher, so that he could sign someone’s marriage certificate. It takes much less effort than I think most people relaize:-P.
Since WWI-II days, the Western world it seems has gotten used to government oversight. We don’t chemically test our own food each & every time we purchase and consume it - as unregulated industries such as drug cartels do - b/c we trust that the bad cases will be filtered out. But this is not done for religions, unless they cross a very firm line. And spreading misinformation, e.g. about a deadly virus, has so far not been considered something to be regulated. At which point it is on each of us individually to have to do our own due diligence, as was already true for picking an appropriate pastor & church community to listen to.
But no, I don’t think expecting politicians to solve problems is at all like grapes. Police, firefighters, schools, roads, bridges, and the like are all examples of something that if you had to do all of that individually yourself, would be an enormous burden. Heck, Trump created a vaccine for COVID - that is not something that any average American is capable of doing, even those with multiple PhDs and MDs to boot. It is an enormous task that we we pay enormously large groups of such people to be able to perform, using also enormous resources (someone has to grow the rabbits used for testing, if those are used, and someone has to grow the feed used to keep them alive, and so on and so forth). Politicians serve a function - if they did not then we could simply get rid of them, but it is not so simple as that. And btw even if we could, and barely notice a difference in our daily lives, there are still outside forces to consider - e.g. if Putin decides to take over America, the entirety of the Russian army (& navy, and air forces, and more) is not something that each individual person is capable of fighting off, one-by-one. We NEED government, no matter how many people (e.g. Reagan) crack jokes about otherwise. Otherwise we will become slaves. And while being a slave is not sinful, nonetheless Jesus said that He came to bring Life, Life to the Fullest, so I kinda doubt that He wants that for us. And therefore, if there is one politician who wants to give us all up as slaves for Putin’s war machine, and there is another politician who at the very minimum does NOT want to do that, then no I do not think that they are equivalent at all. This is a logical fallacy - the appropriately named “false equivalence”.
So yes, I see your perspective - I think I understand it better than you do, unfortunately. But we are in total agreement that if we KEEP reading, if we KEEP searching, and KEEP testing what we read vs. what we KNOW to be True, then we will eventually find the answers that we need.
Lastly, I will leave you with I Timothy 3:1-10 - yes churches are to be attended by sinners, so you can be LGBTQIA+whatever and so long as you are searching for answers, it’s all good (although there are some relevant verses such as expel the actual wicked, unrepentent evil-doers among you, and 1 John 3:9 seems relevant) - but LEADERS are to be held to a higher standard. How many politicians do we find to be unfaithful, temperate, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, and the like? And if they fail, it is our responsibility then as their literal bosses to vote them out, rather than continue to vote to keep them in. How much damage is being done by, let’s pick on Marjorie Taylor Greene for a moment, the people who continue to vote for her, thus inflicting her upon the entire nation as one of our preeminent leaders, capable of e.g. shutting down the entire government when it is time to vote for a budget, and expected to weigh in on important and highly weighty matters like Israel vs. Hamas (which let’s not even get into to, it’s just too deep)? I am glad that you read the Bible. I just wish that others would too. As you said, it’s not merely a tool that is fun to whack people up the backside of the head with (although… that could be fun too, I suppose - should I try it sometime? :-P \s), but it is also meant to be an instruction manual for life that should be actually followed, not merely something for lip service to be paid to (again verses such as Luke 18:10-14 and 1 John 3:9). Here’s an analogy: if someone came at me with a scalpel, I might be worried? Unless they had an MD, and a reason to do so, and my consent. Context matters. Likewise, I have zero beef with people just living their lives however they want to live - but when they step up to be LEADERS, e.g. by voting, then their decisions impact me, and that’s when I start having more of an opinion. And especially when they reveal themselves to be hypocritical, citing the Bible but using it as a club to whack me upside the head with it, while ignoring what it plainly says inside of it, that’s when I might even rise to complain.:-P
I hope I offered some interesting perspectives to ponder in return. Thank you for a respectful conversation.
The rich fund the antigun movement.
And cops.
Some. It’s a mixed bag with cops. I know cops who want everyone armed.
Those things are true, but the average Christian or for that matter anyone who doesn’t own a house can’t give a house to someone else. It’s the rich who need to be forced to care for others, the poor often already give out of their lack.
A LEADER is the one in charge. Behind the wheel of a car, that means the driver - so e.g. if someone is driving drunk, then yes we blame them, not necessarily for killing someone when they plough right over them, but earlier than that for getting behind the wheel in the first place.
An entire nation is a heck of a lot more complicated to operate than a motor vehicle.