Your blame is misplaced. You appear think this is the fault of random people who wear different color hats instead of the result of decades of effort by some of the richest people in our society to fundamentally weaken democracy and to create uneducated people that can be manipulated.
You’re blaming the other members of your class that are the victims of decades of educational failure and indoctrination instead of the people who knowingly implemented those policies looking for this specific result.
It’s a narrow minded and short-sighted way of looking at things; and, in addition, your tribalistic rhetoric only serves to increase the division among the working class further aiding the people who seek to profit from this division.
It’s one thing to be frustrated, but ignorance is how we got here and we downvote you because we don’t need more ignorance even if it’s coming from someone wearing a blue hat instead of a red one.
You appear think this is the fault of random people who wear different color hats instead of the result of decades of effort by some of the richest people in our society to fundamentally weaken democracy and to create uneducated people that can be manipulated.
I can assure you I do not, regardless of what you think the appearances are. I fully understand that this is the result of a systematic approach of the Republican party working as stooges of think tanks such as the Heritage Foundation.
That being said, my anger is most certainly NOT misplaced. For example, I can acknowledge that crime is often a result of poverty and desperation, and yet still be angry at a person who steals my stereo. People have the capacity to be more than just the result of the machinations of others. Not holding them to blame for their actions is anathema to me.
Also, I’m returning the favor and downvoting you for the ignorance you displayed in assuming my motives.
Maybe, but it’s inconceivable that not understanding more about Trump is simple ignorance. The one thing the guy has always been good at is grabbing headlines. How can you possibly live through decades of headlines, a prior term in the Oval Office, all those campaign rallies, all sorts of chaos and outrage, and still be ignorant?
Because there’s an entire alternate reality built by right wing news sources that exist specifically to create confusion and spread misinformation.
It used to be a joke that Fox News was so unaligned with reality. It’s less funny now that there is an entire media ecosystem that supports this alternate reality.
This is why you see people thinking that Trump is a great businessman. Because according to everything that they see and hear, he is. They were never equipped with the media literacy to counteract the weaponized psychology that’s used to target them with political lies and spin.
By the time any individual encounters reality in a way that is undeniable (like the ex-IRS employee) it’s too late.
They’re just a tiny voice in an ocean of lies. If they try to talk about their experiences on right-wing social media they’ll be labeled as a left-wing plant or banned outright. The right-wing media won’t cover their story or repeat their concerns. It’ll continue repeating the lies and spin like it always has and that person will finally understand Martin Niemöller’s poem.
ive tried getting people on here to understand that nixons fall led directly to a trump presidency. it was in his wake that the rich knew controlling the media was paramount, and subsequently the creation of fox news and its ecosystem.
but its common for users here to only see the human that pushed the trump button as willfully ignorant instead of the brainwashed pawns they are.
So what now, they bear no responsibility just due to being brainwashed? Then I have a bridge to sell you: there are no criminals, everyone is innocent. Why? Because most of the time our brain makes a decision before we even become conscious of it. So mr. judge, I did not kill an old lady, it’s just my brain. Surely you can’t give me a sentence for something I did not do willfully?
no, no one is saying that at all. the world is not as black and white as you are implying. you sound like youre 12 and have zero understanding of the human condition.
can we hold voters accountable for electing a fascist? yep. can we understand how they came to be in that position so we can prevent it? you betcha. the interplay of emotion, intellect and responsibility is not a zero sum game.
except that I am three times that age, having spend at least last twelve years looking exactly at how emotion and intellect work and how to make all this play well
and what I see on lemmy is this: every time someone shows well-deserved anger at idiots who made this terror happen(make no mistake, just because we can sit relatively comfortable and just argue on internet, many people experience their lives getting torn apart), there comes someone with the you-cant-just-blame-them attitude, and all that does it “don’t be mad at them, chill”
Well, no. How they came to be this way? Exactly this is how: they. came. to be this way. Same way neither of us did: making choices. Now is not the time to sit and think of how education and whatnot should have been. Now is the time to act.
Now is not the time to sit and think of how education and whatnot should have been. Now is the time to act.
Acting in ignorance is exactly how we got here in the first place.
If you think that acting means attacking the people wearing red hats on social media then you don’t understand what is happening, what the sides are and what is at stake.
You’re advocating for fighting the other fools while the con man runs away with both of your money.
Ah, now comes the best part: assuming what I did not say and answering that. Because what can someone with silly 12-year-old worldview know, right?
And now more to the point
Acting in ignorance is exactly how we got here in the first place
Spoilers: one can say that ignorance is main source of all trouble, but that gets us nowhere right now. We got here by not making people capable of handling life in all its depth. Without people who are developed and balanced no amount of fancy laws, traditions and whatnot will keep things from progressing in ugly directions
If you think that acting means attacking the people wearing red hats
And what if I do not think that? Part of reason being that even if today I drop dead all those filthy-ignorant-idiots (and I am so bright and righteous, of course. Sarcasm, obviously), tomorrow same idiotic things will be done by other people
You’re advocating for fighting the other fools
Short answer of a tired man: please, quote me doing so.
Longer answer of someone still caring about at least something: I am advocating against “oh, poor things, they got brainwashed/caught in information bubbles/whatever, things are more complicated blah-blah”. Things are complicated well beyond anyone’s imagination (I am talking in general here. try finding someone who understands a blade of grass totally, on all levels and in all transactions it is being a part of). First things first: fix the damn thing. Again - no, I am not saying “You, people I have never met, go against armed men and die because I say you should”. I am saying “do what best you can, leave all this things-are-complicated horseshit. It never ends”
It’s interesting that you mention Martin Niemöller. He, like all of the MAGATs getting their faces chewed off by their elected leopard, was a giant piece of shit. His poem wasn’t some clarion call to people who saw the danger of the Nazi party… he was a Nazi. He was a big fan of the Nazis and their agenda. Dude straight up hated the Jews. He only fell afoul of the party’s agenda when they started coming after protestant churches, as he was a pastor.
I don’t feel bad for the Martin Niemöllers of the world, and I don’t feel bad for any person who allows themselves to be duped by obvious conmen. The fact that they gain some measure of enlightenment only after they reach the “find out” stage of the FAFO cycle does not in any way elicit sympathy from me.
Look - we’re at a unique point in our history; information is more free and available than at any time before. Anything that someone wants to find out about practically any subject is just a couple of clicks away. The fact that we’re still so shitty and ignorant is a never-ending source of frustration for me.
Do they not listen to Trumps own words? Maybe that wouldn’t give away the failed real estate conman background but most of these regret articles talk about things that Trump plainly said. Then it shouldn’t take much listening to his words before you understand it’s entirely BS
no they really dont. a huge portion of trump voters dont listen to anything. they dont watch ‘news’. they dont watch ‘social media’. they passively accept the words they hear around them in the office, the bar, the laundromat. they are severely uninformed swimming in a sea of misinformation.
its like that old joke… an old gold fish passes two young goldfish in a pond… the old gold fish says ‘morning boys, hows the water’… the young goldfish look at each other and one says ‘what the hell is water?’.
just because something is very obvious to you, doesnt mean it is to someone else.
Nah, you are just trying to shift the responsibility. If my brain gets washed with indoctrination, it is my responsibility. You want what, just go “these millions of human individuals actually supporting evil bastards are innocent and ignorant, only those bastards are to blame”?
Fuck this shit, this is not how it works
no we arent. if thats all you took from that, youre not capable of the critical thinking required to understand how we got here. i hope someday you can. good luck.
Your blame is misplaced. You appear think this is the fault of random people who wear different color hats instead of the result of decades of effort by some of the richest people in our society to fundamentally weaken democracy and to create uneducated people that can be manipulated.
You’re blaming the other members of your class that are the victims of decades of educational failure and indoctrination instead of the people who knowingly implemented those policies looking for this specific result.
It’s a narrow minded and short-sighted way of looking at things; and, in addition, your tribalistic rhetoric only serves to increase the division among the working class further aiding the people who seek to profit from this division.
It’s one thing to be frustrated, but ignorance is how we got here and we downvote you because we don’t need more ignorance even if it’s coming from someone wearing a blue hat instead of a red one.
I can assure you I do not, regardless of what you think the appearances are. I fully understand that this is the result of a systematic approach of the Republican party working as stooges of think tanks such as the Heritage Foundation.
That being said, my anger is most certainly NOT misplaced. For example, I can acknowledge that crime is often a result of poverty and desperation, and yet still be angry at a person who steals my stereo. People have the capacity to be more than just the result of the machinations of others. Not holding them to blame for their actions is anathema to me.
Also, I’m returning the favor and downvoting you for the ignorance you displayed in assuming my motives.
Maybe, but it’s inconceivable that not understanding more about Trump is simple ignorance. The one thing the guy has always been good at is grabbing headlines. How can you possibly live through decades of headlines, a prior term in the Oval Office, all those campaign rallies, all sorts of chaos and outrage, and still be ignorant?
Because there’s an entire alternate reality built by right wing news sources that exist specifically to create confusion and spread misinformation.
It used to be a joke that Fox News was so unaligned with reality. It’s less funny now that there is an entire media ecosystem that supports this alternate reality.
This is why you see people thinking that Trump is a great businessman. Because according to everything that they see and hear, he is. They were never equipped with the media literacy to counteract the weaponized psychology that’s used to target them with political lies and spin.
By the time any individual encounters reality in a way that is undeniable (like the ex-IRS employee) it’s too late.
They’re just a tiny voice in an ocean of lies. If they try to talk about their experiences on right-wing social media they’ll be labeled as a left-wing plant or banned outright. The right-wing media won’t cover their story or repeat their concerns. It’ll continue repeating the lies and spin like it always has and that person will finally understand Martin Niemöller’s poem.
ive tried getting people on here to understand that nixons fall led directly to a trump presidency. it was in his wake that the rich knew controlling the media was paramount, and subsequently the creation of fox news and its ecosystem.
but its common for users here to only see the human that pushed the trump button as willfully ignorant instead of the brainwashed pawns they are.
So what now, they bear no responsibility just due to being brainwashed? Then I have a bridge to sell you: there are no criminals, everyone is innocent. Why? Because most of the time our brain makes a decision before we even become conscious of it. So mr. judge, I did not kill an old lady, it’s just my brain. Surely you can’t give me a sentence for something I did not do willfully?
no, no one is saying that at all. the world is not as black and white as you are implying. you sound like youre 12 and have zero understanding of the human condition.
can we hold voters accountable for electing a fascist? yep. can we understand how they came to be in that position so we can prevent it? you betcha. the interplay of emotion, intellect and responsibility is not a zero sum game.
except that I am three times that age, having spend at least last twelve years looking exactly at how emotion and intellect work and how to make all this play well
and what I see on lemmy is this: every time someone shows well-deserved anger at idiots who made this terror happen(make no mistake, just because we can sit relatively comfortable and just argue on internet, many people experience their lives getting torn apart), there comes someone with the you-cant-just-blame-them attitude, and all that does it “don’t be mad at them, chill”
Well, no. How they came to be this way? Exactly this is how: they. came. to be this way. Same way neither of us did: making choices. Now is not the time to sit and think of how education and whatnot should have been. Now is the time to act.
Acting in ignorance is exactly how we got here in the first place.
If you think that acting means attacking the people wearing red hats on social media then you don’t understand what is happening, what the sides are and what is at stake.
You’re advocating for fighting the other fools while the con man runs away with both of your money.
Ah, now comes the best part: assuming what I did not say and answering that. Because what can someone with silly 12-year-old worldview know, right?
And now more to the point
Spoilers: one can say that ignorance is main source of all trouble, but that gets us nowhere right now. We got here by not making people capable of handling life in all its depth. Without people who are developed and balanced no amount of fancy laws, traditions and whatnot will keep things from progressing in ugly directions
And what if I do not think that? Part of reason being that even if today I drop dead all those filthy-ignorant-idiots (and I am so bright and righteous, of course. Sarcasm, obviously), tomorrow same idiotic things will be done by other people
Short answer of a tired man: please, quote me doing so.
Longer answer of someone still caring about at least something: I am advocating against “oh, poor things, they got brainwashed/caught in information bubbles/whatever, things are more complicated blah-blah”. Things are complicated well beyond anyone’s imagination (I am talking in general here. try finding someone who understands a blade of grass totally, on all levels and in all transactions it is being a part of). First things first: fix the damn thing. Again - no, I am not saying “You, people I have never met, go against armed men and die because I say you should”. I am saying “do what best you can, leave all this things-are-complicated horseshit. It never ends”
It’s interesting that you mention Martin Niemöller. He, like all of the MAGATs getting their faces chewed off by their elected leopard, was a giant piece of shit. His poem wasn’t some clarion call to people who saw the danger of the Nazi party… he was a Nazi. He was a big fan of the Nazis and their agenda. Dude straight up hated the Jews. He only fell afoul of the party’s agenda when they started coming after protestant churches, as he was a pastor.
I don’t feel bad for the Martin Niemöllers of the world, and I don’t feel bad for any person who allows themselves to be duped by obvious conmen. The fact that they gain some measure of enlightenment only after they reach the “find out” stage of the FAFO cycle does not in any way elicit sympathy from me.
Look - we’re at a unique point in our history; information is more free and available than at any time before. Anything that someone wants to find out about practically any subject is just a couple of clicks away. The fact that we’re still so shitty and ignorant is a never-ending source of frustration for me.
Do they not listen to Trumps own words? Maybe that wouldn’t give away the failed real estate conman background but most of these regret articles talk about things that Trump plainly said. Then it shouldn’t take much listening to his words before you understand it’s entirely BS
no they really dont. a huge portion of trump voters dont listen to anything. they dont watch ‘news’. they dont watch ‘social media’. they passively accept the words they hear around them in the office, the bar, the laundromat. they are severely uninformed swimming in a sea of misinformation.
its like that old joke… an old gold fish passes two young goldfish in a pond… the old gold fish says ‘morning boys, hows the water’… the young goldfish look at each other and one says ‘what the hell is water?’.
just because something is very obvious to you, doesnt mean it is to someone else.
Nah, you are just trying to shift the responsibility. If my brain gets washed with indoctrination, it is my responsibility. You want what, just go “these millions of human individuals actually supporting evil bastards are innocent and ignorant, only those bastards are to blame”? Fuck this shit, this is not how it works
those who fail to understand history are doomed to repeat it.
And the soul becomes dyed with the color of its thoughts. Are we now playing “quote some nonsense”?
no we arent. if thats all you took from that, youre not capable of the critical thinking required to understand how we got here. i hope someday you can. good luck.
Bravo. Such profound conversation. Go pet yourself on the back