Italy’s parliament on Tuesday approved a law that introduces femicide into the country’s criminal law and punishes it with life in prison.
The vote coincided with the international day for the elimination of violence against women, a day designated by the U.N. General Assembly.
The law won bipartisan support from the center-right majority and the center-left opposition in the final vote in the Lower Chamber, passing with 237 votes in favor.
The law, backed by the conservative government of Premier Giorgia Meloni, comes in response to a series of killings and other violence targeting women in Italy. It includes stronger measures against gender-based crimes including stalking and revenge porn.
Since when have stronger punishments deterred crimes?
The article is vague. Where are the laws to protect anyone attacked because of their gender? Is that this law? If so, then great: it’s nondiscriminatory. If not, then it’s discriminatory: discriminatory laws are inherently unjust.
It’s as easy to make a discriminatory law nondiscriminatory by generalizing the language.
Laws that recognize life of one group of people as more valuable than other are the exact same logic that was used to defend slavery. Murder is murder. Recognizing one groups life as more valuable then others is wrong, no matter how much you want to dress that pig to look progressive.
There needs to be more accountability for law enforcement for this too have any real effect. Studies show up to 40% of law enforcement self identify as domestic abusers. So why would they investigate themselves?
That is a wild statistic! Is that study just in Italy or?
That is a wild statistic!
It’s a demonstrably inaccurate number. The study was vague enough that yelling at a partner was included, and much more damning they included the officer even if they were the victim in the situation. It literally paints the victims as domestic abusers!
“40% of law enforcement self identify as domestic abusers” is demonstrably false and is not something that should be repeated.
Thank you for clarifying, it seemed crazy high. I know the stereotypes but still.
as far as I know that stat is for the united States, but pigs are pigs
Law enforcement in the USA is specific. It’s not the same in every country. Can’t speak for Italy though.
Yea… I’m with the incels that don’t really understand the point. If murder was already a crime that would be punished by life in prison, narrowing the specificity of who was murdered doesn’t change much of anything.
“Cool, if it makes you happy I guess 👍”
It includes stronger measures against gender-based crimes including stalking and revenge porn
Read?
My comment is very clearly specifically in reference to the term “femicide” and the official recognition of it within Italian law. It’s murder. If a woman kills another woman, it is not a femicide, that’s just a murder… the penalty is the same in the end… right??? Overall, it seems a relatively unnecessary level of specificity.
Neither stalking nor revenge porn should count as gender-based violence. It is gender violence if it’s strictly based on because of someone’s gender with no other motivation.
Yea… I’m with the incels
If you ever find yourself uttering this sentence you really wanna rethink your stance
I am with Hitler on treating animals better. So what? If you care where a stance comes from rather than what it stands for, you are an ignoramus.
Hitler didn’t originate animal kindness though
He supported it. And there probably isn’t just one originator for most stances. Multiple people can form the same ideas.
weird hill but ok.
Like, If I support animal rights I’d just say “I support animal rights” I won’t say “I’m with hitler on animal rights”
If you ever find yourself uttering this sentence you really wanna rethink your stance
I am making fun of your hill ;D Seems it is super effective :D
nah, I’m good.
The one where I oppose sexist laws? Which stance?
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Spot on! That’s exactly how agreeing with people works!
When I agree with women, I turn into a woman! When I agree with doctors, I become a doctor!
I agree with doctors that vaccines save lives, so I’ll be taking that free medical degree now.
“You don’t agree with me, therefore you must be bad”
And every asshole upvoting that trap
I don’t see how the femicide part makes any sense or difference. There were already the exact same punishments for killing of anyone, so isn’t this essentially copy pasting existing laws but with a specific group highlight? If that’s the case, it will do absolutely nothing.
The second part is fine, though I hope it’s meant for everyone and not just women. I don’t know about Italy specifically, but in many European countries if you fall victim to these crimes as a man, you’ll likely receive no help.
Would be great to see some more protections for everyone, as well as more serious punishments for violations against anyone. Making anything like this gender-specific will just fuel already problematic anti-other-gender sentiment.
inequity is real.
If each and every person should matter then It should be ok to recognize each and every person for what they are being targetted for. And I see this law as doing just that. It’s recognizing that a person may not be targetted for being an individual but a part of a group. And that is important. So That is taking their individualness into importance by recognizing the group they are being targetted by.
This should be allowed if you’re being legitimately concerned for EVERYONE’S safety here.
people who may be at their job as a sex worker. Or if they are simply female and that in itself could be weaponized against them.
They will face a violent discrimination just as another person fitting into a different group might. And it’s important to recognize that, make that a law, and keep them safe too. So if “Being targetted for”is a law , recognizing group profile is part of that.
If you aim for equality, making separate laws for separate genders is not the solution. This is anything but equality. Especially when there are already laws protecting the groups in question, as part of the entire nation. The problem here is completely different and requires different solutions.
To note: I’m not who you responded to.
making separate laws for separate genders is not the solution
Absolutely it is. If there is a measurable inequality towards a minority, you should enshrine the protection of that minority into law - which is one reasons why many countries specify anti-discrimination laws. This law regards the same.
The problem here is completely different
Which you have failed to specify. So… the problem is what, exactly? I don’t see one.
and requires different solutions.
Which you also failed to provide.
I’m getting a strong “but won’t anyone think of the men!” vibe from you.
- Women are not a minority.
- Anti-discrimation laws generally apply to everyone. Otherwise they’d themselves be discriminatory.
- Not specifying problems/solutions, since it’s quite a sensitive and complex topic. It’s way easier to rate an existing proposition than to come up with an alternative. Though obviously, a good start would be to respect and enforce laws that are already in place. E.g., all EU countries already have laws prohibiting all kinds of sexual harassment and assault. However, many cases are still ignored for a variety of reasons. In this specific instance, adding more laws would accomplish nothing.
- I know this isn’t literally what you meant, but I am in fact trying to think of the men, as well as women. When striving for equality, you want to consider all of the groups in question and not just one or two out of many. Feminism used to be about equal rights between men and women, but nowadays it’s usually about more rights for women and fewer for men. While it’s not actually feminism, it does present itself as such and many people consider it to be, so it’s still relevant to the discussion. This may ‘work’ for a short while, but long-term will do nothing but pin men and women against each other. As designed, since it’s in most politicians’ best interests to keep us divided. This is not the way.
I think a better law would be more generic in defining what defined group targeting.
Why only protect one group? How many other divisions will there be?
How balkanized will you make the law when ypu apply it to people?
Will more wealth entitle you to more protections?
It sounds lis you’re asking to have 4 more discussion on top of this one.
No. You missed the appeal to the absurd that was the basis of my reply.
Wonderful that you think human rights to life is absurd and a joke to you. Absolutely wonderful.
Trolls are shit on this sub.
Equal rights are just conceptually beyond comprehension to so so many people.
inequity is real.
Right, in discriminatory laws.
Generalizing the law to crimes attacking anyone for their gender would also increase penalties for femicide without legal discrimination. Did you know there are other genders in the world?
Oh geez no not until you just told me in such a good faith way to have a discussion.
Then maybe start acting like it instead of missing the obvious?
If each and every person should matter then It should be ok to recognize each and every person for what they are being targetted for. And I see this law as doing just that.
Please note that, by all accounts I’ve seen, Italy’s femicide law does not cover any similar offense against men. It’s an elevated offense to try and reduce the disproportionate number of Italian women who are killed by intimate partners.
It sounds like we are agreeing here.
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This post has helped me root out all the shitty piece of shit incels to block on Lemmy. Thank you for this.
I’m reading a lot of responses here that seem to rhyme with the “White lives matter!” responses to the BLM movement.
As was the case then, what seems to be getting missed by those saying this is the context. Italy has a major issue with domestic violence, including spousal murder. From the sound of it, it’s usually women who are the victims. Thus, a new law to target wife abusers specifically.
There may be some merit to debating whether this is an effective move or not, I’m not up on my research there; but let’s not deny that they see a need, and are attempting to address it.
It take a certain type of flaw in logic to assume that because a group is “getting” something, it means another group is losing something.
What if one group is getting something unproportionally more than the other.
That creates inequality, essentially meaning that the disadvantaged group is losing something. I.e. they get less that the other group.
So yeah, if you give one group much more than the other, they are losing something.
Recognizing group harassment is also benefitting individualism by recognizing that… inequity is real.
So are you guys getting less stalking, harassmentd, domestic violence and murder by your partner or are you just blowing smoke rings here
We’re no longer discussing stalking or harassment.
We are talking about equality between different groups and what it means.
They’re trying to use “logic” to justify giving one group more than the other.
And I’m using the same “logic” to argue the opposite.
Simple debate, nothing more.
This isn’t giving one group more than the other, it’s not like you can murder men now.
Any criticism of this law should be around the ineffectiveness of harsh punishments as a deterrent, not that it’s sexist
As if you could murder women before?
This isn’t giving one group more than the other, it’s not like you can murder men now.
And that’s not what I’m arguing about.
The other commenter said “giving more to one group doesn’t take away from another” and apparently you have to have flawed logic to think otherwise.
THAT’S what I’m arguing about. In case you didn’t bother reading the comments properly…
Your “logic” is no such thing. And stop pretending your scenarios exist isolate of context. Damned fool.
You know you won the argument when the other party starts insulting instead of presenting valid arguments.
Keep your options to yourself in serious debates please. It just muddles the truth.
These comments seem to be full of the same people who misunderstand that the word “racism” describes a massive cultural and societal issue that affects people in large, hidden ways throughout their life, rather than using bad words.
If they had a problem in Italy of men being murdered for not being obedient, it might be worth considering broadening the scope of this classification.
This does not even target the perpetrators as a class (even though we can probably guess a general demographic), just classifies the crime according to what has happened to the victim, and why. This is the same for all hate crimes that are prevalent enough to warrant it. Imo it is the culture and society that makes it a hate crime, not just the intent.
I find it amazing that half the threads on this post I can’t open because they’re being piled on by people I’ve already blocked on lemmy. 🙄
Men with sexual insecurity is a driving force of contention and violent politics in this entire world. If you read that special protections are being made for a class of people who are suffering dis-fucking-proportionally and you say “What about meeeeee?” to it, you need to get your shit together. You’re not healthy.
But the end result, the punishment… nothing is changing here. Is the general belief that labeling, and “bringing awareness” is going to stop anything? Is this similar to how labeling racism as racism in the USA has completely wiped out racism?
Because murder is usually 21 years, with egregious cases earning life. Femicide gets automatic life
Honestly it’s like whingeing “why do you have to define first and second degree murder hurr its all murderrr”. You’re not clever.
Is murder typically 21 years though in Italy? Yours is the only answer that’s a reasonable answer if you’re actually correct. In reading other comments in this post, I came to the understanding that the penalty for murder in Italy was life in prison already. I’m not versed in the punishments for breaking laws in Italy… I doubt a lot of people on Lemmy are.
Like most countries it varies based on circumstance
But that’s not the point. It’s a specific crime they are targeting here (your first hint is the name!)
I read about it during my lunch break. Turns out, it’s just another sexist law applied by a conservative government.
If you’re unable to process that the penalty for killing someone should not vary based on their gender, you, and the conservative government of Italy need help.
No
Ok… so… 🤷♂️
I hesitated whether to engage because your use of the word “completely” labels you a troll. You also put “bringing awareness” in quotes instead of using the word visibility, presumably to belittle the concept.
Visibility helps collect and track data, drive policy, reveal patterns, support victims and survivors, improve early intervention and prevention, and, hopefully, eventually, shift cultural attitudes.
But you could get that from Google if you gaf.
I didn’t go to google to read the article, it was on Lemmy… thus, I asked Lemmy. You could probably infer that if you gaf but it seems your aim is to be combative. The word “completely” threw you off? It wasn’t the sarcasm implying that “racism is cured now because of awarenes?” Best of luck…
Not at all, if your weren’t trolling, I hope your found those points helpful in describing the benefits of visibility.
One of the things I missed out was government accountability, where police departments have historically labelled these as isolated incidents, because the big picture is pretty sickening.
If they had a problem in Italy of men being murdered for not being obedient, it might be worth considering broadening the scope of this classification.
Intent is a relevant consideration for defining special categories of a crime assigned special penalties. However, it’s also important that the law not be discriminatory.
Does this law create a special category only for crimes driven by sexism toward females or any gender? It could be written as easily either way.
A law exclusively treating only sexism toward females as the word femicide suggests is discriminatory. A gender-neutral law that raises penalties for all sexism-driven homicides including femicide is nondiscriminatory. All sexism-driven crime should be punished equally regardless of gender.
“Femicide” so… murder? Yeah, hasnt “life” been the typical punishment for murder? (Life is usually 25years) .
Did they not already recognize murder of women should be treated like murder?
Victims of relationships violence (myself), stalking and harassment (myself), should have justice. Unfortunately, I dont hear much about the men who suffer from this type of violence.
There is a massive imbalance in violent crimes, in that nearly half of all women murdered are murdered by a spouse, partner or boyfriend or other kind of male acquaintance.
This doesn’t skew the other direction, so that’s why women victims are getting special consideration and why there are special laws being made to make it easier to prosecute this kind of crime in a different or more efficient way. (Like we have “hate crime” laws that allow for special forms of prosecution.) This isn’t supposed to solve all the problems, but it may help by making the consequences of a man killing his wife or girlfriend far less likely to be reduced by pleas of temporary insanity or the like or be dropped by the court for minor reasons.
This isn’t a special law to make it easier to prosecute. It adds femicide to the list of elements that can elevate the sentencing.
Edit: I don’t think this is necessarily a bad thing, I am broadly skeptical that harsher sentences will do anything to reduce crime. This needs to be paired with strong cultural changes if it’s to do anything.
Did you even read the header? It was more than just murder.
It includes stronger measures against gender-based crimes including stalking and revenge porn
But is it discriminatory or is anyone protected regardless of their gender?
Maybe I’m wrong but I’m interpreting this being in the vein of a crime being murder, but potentially also a hate crime. The motivation of a crime is part of its definition and affects sentencing especially in tertiary cases eg attempted murder, manslaughter etc.
It’s not just about murder. It’s about how men are the primary perpetrators of violence against women. As a woman, If I go out anywhere my #1 fear is a man. We are taught to never go outside alone at night, even in our own neighborhoods. We are taught not to trust strange men. We have to protect our drinks if we go out to socialize. Every position we find ourselves in we have to consider whether its safe or not. We can’t walk across a parking lot to our cars without worrying if a man will do something. Hell, we even have to consider if smiling at a man or not will trigger him. It sounds crazy and over the top but it’s the reality of being a woman. Constant awareness of everything and everyone around us. On average the weakest man is stronger than the average woman. It’s very easy to overpower us so we must be vigilant to never get into that position in the first place. It’s fucking exhausting having to think these things about every man we meet.
I’m sorry about what has happened to you, it’s wrong and you deserve justice. You shouldn’t be ignored just because you’re a man and it is perceived that you can’t be a victim in these cases. I don’t agree with that at all and I really feel for you. But you need to understand the things that happen to women every minute and that’s the point of what Italy is doing.
Ok so it looks like incels CAN’T read. Just as much as they can’t pick a username.
Its best if everyone knows that they’re dealing with a special guy. Its an advantage im not trying to hide.
Cool, now Italy stop recognizing the copout that is allowing the framing of spousal murders as crimes of passion for the purpose of reducing the sentence, its complete bullshit.
Its like giving a drunk driver a curative discharge, its like, umm no, fuck off
Too bad that this government also slashed the funds for shelters for women and forbade affective education in primary and middle school. Not to mention cops ignoring calls from women who’re being stalked or harassed and not intervening when a man remove his ankle monitor to circumvene a restrictive order.
It’s sad that it’s been so bad there that they needed a law for this. Good on them for passing it. Now they need to do the work on changing the culture of weak men to remove this behavior. Unfortunately, this is also a worldwide issue that needs to be healed.
You have selected regicide! If you know the name of the king or queen being murdered, please press 1.
The law, backed by the fascist government of Premier Giorgia Meloni
Ftfy. Broken clock, twice a day…
Setting up for a string of “not real women” court cases? Enshrining that gay and lesbian victims don’t get the same justice het women will?
Can’t wait for crickets when a clearly discriminatory law ends up being a tool for discrimination.
Holy shit I didn’t even think of that. That is totally in character for that fascist piece of shit and her Gestapo government.
She was democratically elected. Not charged or convicted of any crimes. No pedophilia. She implemented a new tax on banks and insurance worth 11 billion euro.
Aside from fucking Elon Musk, she’s been pretty effective.
Do you have brain damage? She’s still a fascist.
I’m out of the loop. How is she a fascist?
By being in a fascist party. Try wikipedia or a source of your choice for Fratelli D’Italia (a.k.a. hate filled little shits of Italy)
