For example workplace harrasment by women towards males like touching or groping being ignored because the victim is male but if it where to happen to a woman by a male the male would be fired
Cut bits of a girl baby’s genitals: jail.
Cut bits off a boy baby’s genitals: An occasion for a fucking party.
And old men can suck on the wound.
Say what ?!? Is this real ?
Yes, rabbi use to suck on baby dicks after mutilating them. Iirc a lot of them stopped doing it after giving a few babies herpes.
One of the early chapters in The God Delusion (Richard Dawkins) covers this.
One subgroup does it.
They also cnut it with a freaky pinky nail
Also to add on to this
Mothers showing pictures of their naked boys as babies, totally fine
Father’s showing images of their naked daughters as babies, people go wtf
I wish people didn’t show those images at all or even take them reguardless of gender
My understanding is that infant labiaplasty and other female genital cosmetic surgeries are pretty common as well in western countries. Luckily there is a growing protest to these practices on ethical grounds, since they’re all medically unnecessary surgeries performed on babies that can’t consent to it.
This journal publication seems to put it into perspective decently. It also points out some of the racist hypocrasy surrounding it, like how we classify these actions being done by non-western cultures as ‘mutilation’ which is unlawful, while classifying ones aligned with our own culture as ‘cosmetic’ and still allow them.
As a guy who’s trying dating again, there’s something that keeps coming up that kinda bugs me: talking to women who just put in the bare minimum of effort, expect me to carry the conversation and make all the first moves.
I don’t give two shits about traditional gender roles and I’m all about subverting them. However, I think if you’re in the same boat but still wanna call yourself a “passenger princess” and expect the guy to do everything, you’re kind of a hypocrite.
Just want to let you know that you aren’t alone. I have talked to a number of women who advocate for things like DEI and acceptance (which is something I also believe quite strongly in) but often default to preferring more traditional gender norms in dating. When pressed on the issue (not like I’m interrogating them just through normal conversations and getting to know them) they will inevitably say that it is ultimately “just their preference”.
What I find so odd about that “preference” is if a man behaves in accordance with the traditional/societal gender norms in the beginning of the courting process, why is it surprising that they do the same thing later in the relationship when it comes to sharing emotional labor or various types of household chores?
I know the below is taking it to a bit of an extreme example but that behavior and “preference” often reminds me the sentiment “the only moral abortion is my abortion”. Like I get it, there are a lot of shitty people out there who have no interest in putting in the effort, and they absolutely are not worth the time and effort, but when you do meet someone who is willing to put in that effort, it isn’t really fair to treat them like all those other people.
Men are in a kind of catch-22. Women say they want one thing but their actions usually say they want the opposite.
Not really. It’s quite easy to understand. They generally want feminism when it benefits them, but traditional gender roles when it benefits them.
I don’t blame them though, I also want things that benefit them. But it’s a dick move to do it with feminism, which is supposed to mean equality.
It’s not equality when they can pick and choose when to be equal.
Isn’t egalitarianism the term for equality?
NGL I searched the term. Egalitarianism is about all people.
Feminism is only about eliminating the unfair inequalities between men and women.
Yeah and then you got the “marrying kind” type of guys who cheat on their wife cause shes “frigid”
I’ve got a theory that women put more effort into dating apps than we think. It’s just spread across so many more people.
Oh yeah, I’ve seen the other side of things through female friends. They generally have the opposite problem as men.
I’d heard about guys doing stupid shit on dating apps like sending unsolicited dick pics or just going straight for sexual stuff and figured it was maybe a “yeah it happens once in a while” kinda thing, because I’d personally never do something like that. But in fact it seems like a large portion of the interactions are just that bad.
So I can understand not putting in a lot of effort initially. Starting with small talk and making sure it’s not a waste of your time. I do the exact same thing.
But even after it feels like I’ve started to establish a rapport with someone, the conversation still can feel incredibly one-sided. It’s like, okay, at this point you’re just kinda being disrespectful. And it happens over and over again.
Drop these conversations, let them go cold. This person clearly has no affinity with you or doesn’t value you. Move on.
Yes, thank you, I never would have figured that out without your brilliant insight.
Unfortunately, because of the aforementioned probationary period at the start of any conversation, it can take some time before it becomes clear that the other person just isn’t that interested.
Can I still be annoyed at my time and effort being wasted? Or is it just my fault for being a man on a dating app?
Morta is trying to fix your problem. Stop resisting and stop being a baby! /s
No wonder. Good luck
I mean, I think alittle? Not because of the reasons you think, though, and it’s not really ‘your fault’. More of a pitfall that most people fall into.
TLDR: ditch the apps and try to get out into more social situations through clubs and sports. The ‘right one’ will come along when you are more socially able an mm you’ll likely make friends along the way (genuine friends are WAY more important for staying sane).
So, tinder specifically objectifies and compresses you into a blurb and some photos - it basically cans you for mass consumption. When you finally get ‘bought’, you only get a chat box to communicate unless you actually exchange contacts, and the whole thing’s kind of terrible in general because of that. I’ve tried bumble and it’s pretty much a similar thing.
There’s this thing sometimes called the ‘predator/prey relationship model’ by feminists, and dating apps explicitly reinforce this model, with the only minor change being that bumble required the woman to open the interaction. The predator/prey relationship makes it so that in our society, dudes are expected to go out, find a random woman they fancy, and ‘pounce’ them, essentially. Originally, this was quite literal if you have heard some stories of relationships starting in the 40s and 50s where a couple got together because the guy was just constantly unrelenting. This has shifted to being more egalitarian and consensual but still requires the guy to basically peacock to gain the woman’s approval. Once it officially becomes a relationship, the woman is expected to be submissive while the man is expected to be dominant. It’s a pretty old-fashioned relationship style that still affects modern dating today. Some folks even still subscribe to it.
The better model that I think is more natural is to just go out and find new friends and groups I can participate in. This way, anyone you might date sees you in more context. You get more practice being social, which can be helpful in actually getting someone to become attracted to you, at which point they might actually start putting in effort.
This kind of thing drives me mad.
If we both like each other, why don’t we communicate like adults instead of playing some stupid game?
Exactly.
if we both like each other
I think the number of women* who are looking for a man to spend time with because she enjoys his personality are outnumbered by women who like the attention they get when they post a picture of the meal her date paid for to Instagram.
*here defined as “adult female humans somewhere between the age of majority and menopause existing in the present day found in the Western, English-speaking world” for those of you who want to so helpfully remind me that women in South Sudan or Mongolia that aren’t like that.
Well, then there’s another stupid game… “Hey hon’ do I look fat in these jeans?”
“Positively rotund. How’d you even fit through the door to get in here? I’m amazed your shins haven’t given out under the strain.”
Push those “”““tests””“” right back down their throats with a second hand toilet plunger.
Same, I am bi, and that is the reason I stopped trying to date women, or anyone who behaves like that for good measure, because some guys try to pull that same stunt.
I want a partner who is as interested and as into dating me as I am into dating them, someone who puts the time in and makes an effort, makes me and my time feel valued, and is also willing to to invest themselves and their time on me, and I don’t know if I was just unlucky, but I never found a woman who was into that. But then again, I pretty much only dated teens and women in their early 20s, as I liked dating people on my own age group and it was at those ages that I was actively dating women.
But from an outsider’s perspective, now on my late 30s, the straight dating market looks awful, I think I’ll stick with men.
I keep hearing horror stories on lesbian dating market, males seems to be doing fine and only group getting along lol
also, all these theories on domestic abuse but don’t lesbians have the highest rates of abuse?
They do, according to the studies I have read. And unlike a lot of studies, that default to male violence in straight cases of domestic violence, a lot of the lesbic cases seem to be tagged as mutual violence.
Don’t know if it is bias on the measuring bodies, since a lot of people claim female on male violence is not a thing, and that the moment a man strikes a woman, no matter the circumstances, it is male on female. Including a case I witnessed, where a female family member attacked her boyfriend with a knife, he disarmed her and since he bruised her while doing so, he was removed from the house and lost custody of his own daughter.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10751048/
This study found no significant differences in victimization types between same-sex and opposite-sex intimate partner violence for females, and no differences in physical and sexual abuse for males. Small sample sizes might have affected these findings.
I don’t see much problem with this. It’s one thing to advocate for everyone having greater freedoms to form non-heteronormative-style relationships, and an entire other thing to necessarily want that for yourself. That’s what Feminism is about after all, a broadening of accepted lifestyles and freedoms - not necessarily a complete shift to a paradigm that prohibits the previous one. In this kind of case, it just sounds like you are discovering up front that you two are not seeking the same type of relationship, which is good to find out early.
It’s kind of like advocating for a bike lane in your city despite you not biking and having no interest in biking. I don’t think you’re a hypocrite for not using freedoms you advocate for.
This one so absolutely fucking much, holy shit. After a year of dating apps and literally only getting one actual conversation (that didn’t go anywhere, but they were very nice) I’ve pretty much just said fuck it, I do well enough being a hermit I don’t need to be dating.
Frankly a lot less stress.
In favor of men: when we get angry, people listen. When women get angry, people stop listening.
Against men: men being around children is seen as suspect. Women being around children is seen as healthy.
Dude. I was at an MLB baseball game about a year ago. It was the 6th inning. I walked into the bathroom while play is still going on. I specifically picked that time because it was the other team at bat, and not their best hitters. My logic was “nobody will be in the bathroom, but nothing will happen in the game either! I’m so smart for going to pee now!”
I walk into the bathroom. First thing I see is a row of about 20 urinals, and deadset in the middle is a 5 year old boy with his pants around his ankles. Bare ass on display. No parent in sight.
I walked in, saw that, walked right back out. Like Aberaham Simpson when he walked into the strip club and saw Bart.
I was like noooooooope. I am NOT going to be in that room when the dad comes in. Even if I’m 10 urinals away. I can wait to pee in the 7th inning, and totally abandon my amazing pee stratagy.
Last thing I need is a protective parent walking in, and asking why I’m in the room with a bare assed 5 year old. Even if nothing happened. I’ll just wait an inning.
Your country is bizarre 😅 in europe: who the hell cares? Everyone pees.
No, it’s the same way here. People invent these imaginary fears. Same with OC about children in general. Nobody gives a shit or is looking at dads.
Like sure, maybe you hit the jackpot and find the crazy but the vast majority of parents so not give a shit in the states.
The consequences in the US are so severe it’s not worth the risk. Just an accusation can ruin someone’s life.
🙄👌👍
Said as someone who has never had to deal with it
Because it doesn’t happen lol
I would ask where the dad is but if its like butters dad hes likely losing a wrestling match somewhere.
if?
Y’all imagine crazy stories. That shit happenes all the time and nobody cares.
Fucking bizarre
I had a girlfriend once and i was absolutely mad at her for reasons i don’t remember. She said she would go home. I knew her for about 2 years and she herself said she never even heard me getting loud or angry with anyone. Anyway, after she left for 15 minutes she came back in and started arguing again. I asked her if she could please just leave. But she kept going. I really didn’t know what to do, because i didn’t just want to grab her and throw her out or anything, so i kept telling her to leave. I went to the toilet and hoped that she would be gone by the time i was done peeing. But she didn’t, she came into the bathroom to keep arguing. That’s where i totally flipped and grabbed her arm and threw her out and told her to go home.
I can’t even imagine doing that to a woman. Like just refusing to leave after i yelled at her for 30 minutes and all she said was: just please leave. Following her into the bathroom to keep yelling at her. I would go straight to jail, while she didn’t even really understood that something went wrong.
This happens a lot more than society is willing to admit.
Camera phones are changing this slowly similar with the police and karen issues.
It is now subgenre on youtube. It was weird realizing that some women will just act that way because “wtf is u gonnd do about it, pussy, call the police? Try me!!!”
One of the two presidential candidates has five children with three different partners. The coverage of that fact would be very different it it were the female.
This is going to be my new way to antagonize conservatives I know:
ME: Did you know Harris has had 5 kids with 3 different partners?!
MORON: I don’t doubt it. She’s a whore!
ME: Oh sorry, I meant Trump.
Yeah, he’s a good looking stud, what do you expect.
downvoters did not pick up on sarcasm?
Absolutely not. Satire of Trump supporters and Trump supporters are indistinguishable. The ear bandages, the diaper wearing. The complete and utter nonsense they swallow and spout. Being proud of “grab 'em by the pussy” and openly supporting KKK and walking the streets with actual swastikas. There’s nothing too extreme to be even remotely too absurd to be true from MAGA. So no, unless you’re putting a /s on your fake utterly stupid moronic take Republican opinion, I absolutely can’t tell that you’re ridiculing them instead of just being that stupid.
Oh no, instead she has step-children so was referred to as a “Childless cat lady” by checks notes the running mate of the opposing party.
The only place to the conservative crowd for a woman to be in is in a single relationship with her own kids. Though I’m sure they’d have a way to gripe about it too.
Men are often expected to swallow their emotions and just “function”, while women are allowed and even encouraged to display them openly
That’s a funny one because men are celebrated for suppressing emotions and women are penalisd for showing them.
Its sort of crazy how there’s no real effort to help people develop their emotional intelligence as a kid or beyond. It should be like no later than grade 1 or 2 where people learn about their feelings and setting limits with people.
So many parents gasp at the idea of their child actually having boundaries that are to be respected because muh dominion or they never learned about it themselves and aren’t open to everyone simply being more observant and respectful of them
One reason we chose the school my kids go to is because they do teach about emotions and friendship and so on.
Thats awesome! Super important stuff for being well and a good person to have around for others
Yeah, it is one of the things I love about the district we are in. They are big on EQ and also very inclusive (my kids are on the spectrum, so I like that they actively teach about inclusion).
This is called Social Emotional Learning and is a big thing in the school I teach in, but has big pushback from many conservatives because it talks about respecting people for their differences, even if they are gay or trans or a poc.
There’s a huge discrepancy in how people understand the word respect.
The “blindly follow what I say and override all your reactions to the pain it will probably cost” and hold your tongue/bottle your emotions shit needs to die in a fire. That is blind control, it is very different and it means much more work and negative outcomes for all involved.
Love this, thanks for giving such shape to the form I was getting at
Np. It’s not mine of course, but unfortunately I don’t know what the source is.
Yeah the patriarchy is really just the ruling class using us to suppress each other.
Unless that emotion is anger. That’s the one exception.
Yes! 100%.
Which is also funny because that leads directly to a lot of mental problems for these men.
I see a change is this trend, but a lot of damage has already been done and it will take quite a while to recover from this.
Hmmm, I think Kyle Rittenhouse and Gus Walz might have a different perspective. One displayed remorse through blubbering “tears” to play-act out of murder charges and one displayed genuine emotion for a successful family member. Both were pilloried for displaying emotion, fake or real.
Magic Eight Ball says: Concentrate and ask again
Women absolutely are penalized for showing emotion. Socially between friends there is a lot better support, and that is probably what you are thinking of. In a workplace environment though, there can be serious consequences for expressing anything other than congeniality. If you’re socially withdrawn you’re an ice queen, if you get angry (no matter how justifiable) you’re a bitch or a dragon lady. If you’re stressed and not perfectly composed you’re weak “unable to handle the pressure”. I get that men are subject to the same kind of judgments but there seems to be more leeway.
It’s not that women are “allowed,” it’s more so that women are expected to be emotional because they’re oh such emotional creatures and of course she’s crying.
Men are often expected to swallow
😏
their emotions
😔
I would counter this and say any woman with a career can absolutely not show emotion. They’re expected to behave like men, which are in turn not supposed to show emotion in the workplace. It’s less of a double standard and more of a toxic standard.
Commenter didn’t say work. It’s true in all circumstances.
You recognizing it as true in the work place by understanding women are expected to be like men in the work place. Because men are not expected to show emotions.
Your counter is actually an example.
Well, for one, the ability to freely talk about issues specific to their gender without judgement by ~20% of the population
I was also confused by the amount of downvotes
We had to shutter !twoxchromosomes@slrpnk.net because of persistent and vocal judgement by a large population of Lemmy users, many from Lemmy.World. So no, talking about issues specific to their gender is definitely not a double standard where men get the short end of the stick.
This is why you get judged. Because you so nakedly put on display how much ignorance and little empathy you have for women’s issues.
!mensliberation@lemmy.ca exists specifically for men who understand their issues in society are intersectional with women’s issues, and that solving them requires uniting to end patriarchy. Any discussion outside of that framing deserves the assumption that it’s a misogynist men’s pity party.
Why is it okay for twoX to be devoted to women’s issues and actively discourage comparing them to men’s issues, but men can’t have an analogous space?
Fwiw, if your twoX was different from previous similarly-named communities then I am sorry it closed.
I think you misunderstood me. I do think men should have an analogous space. I support !mensliberation@lemmy.ca 100%.
If you didn’t misunderstand me, men don’t need a space specifically for comparing their issues negatively against women’s issues. That space is everywhere and anywhere, as evidenced by this discussion occurring in !asklemmy@lemmy.world and collecting overwhelmingly positive upvotes.
Your comments here are an example of double standard.
You are asking for men issues to stay in groups specific to that issue. Anyone who did the same for questions about women would be called a misogynist.
Wow, you’re really reaching there. I’m asking you to stop blaming women for men’s problems. There’s a group of people who aren’t doing that, and if you don’t want to be called a misogynist, follow the example of that group.
I’m asking you to stop blaming women for men’s problems.
And yet you’re the exact type of person to blame men for women’s issues lol
Your mental gymnastics are funny
Nah, this is textbook double standards.
You are part of the problem that is stopping true equality. If men have everywhere to work through issues so you need a special place to do it, how does that end. You forever stay locked in that safe space because men own the public forum? Or do you try to fight for your spot in the public forum, attacking the only place you allowed men to work through issues? Or do you want a place in the public forum and your own space?
So by your own logic women have their own communities and the general forum is for men, because of this post. So should women be told not to discuss their issues in general forums like Ask Lemmy and stick to their own communities? I mean these are for men right? Seems messed up to me.
Why not just let everyone have a seat at every table? Be truly open and equal, instead of men deciding what women can have and women deciding what men can have. It’s not a hard concept.
It’s people like you that make the divide bigger every time you fight for “equality”.
Will you stop blaming men for women’s problems?
The incels are out in force.
Ask them if they’re also supportive of White Pride and the KKK. Or if they’d endorse a “White Lives Matter” movement.
- If they aren’t, then it reveals their cognitive dissonance.
- If they are, then while they may be consistent, it also reveals they’re bigots and exposes the fallacious thinking.
Maybe then the cognitive dissonance will be obvious.
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You’re from twoX. You hate men unconditionally
Men’s Lib on lemmy is an explicitly feminist space, and all the men there are in the pathetic friendzone white knight “women can do no wrong” space.
How do you define feminism because I wouldn’t call feminists “pathetic friend zone white knight ‘women can do no wrong’” types.
It’s not a causal thing. I’m saying both a and b are true, not that b is true because of a.
You got some examples of this or just based on vibes?
You can look yourself if you like. Everything in there is all “feminism is awesome” and “men should be more like women”.
I haven’t checked it out myself but its ridiculous to think women can’t do anything that plays into traditional gender roles that is used to put down men (like men shouldn’t share their feeling for example)
According to mens lib, that doesn’t happen and if you keep insisting it does they’ll ban you
Please go back to Reddit. Seems like a much better place for misandrists. We’re trying to build a healthy community here
One that constantly comes up between me and my partner is fashion related. She is very liberal but when it comes to our relationship is the exact opposite. She buys everything from lacy thongs and g-strings to boy shorts underwear. She hates that I as a man wear thong and bikini underwear, too. I’m athletic, lift and workout 5 days a week, and get hot very easily. I like the support and minimalism of thongs for that, but she always buys me boxers which are uncomfortable and bunch up and all the extra fabric and cotton makes me hot and sweaty and chafe. When I bring up she wears thongs just do she doesn’t have panty lines and I wear them for comfort and support she doesn’t understand. She also mentioned she thinks guys wearing thongs is weird but then says it’s so “brave” when gay guys do it during pride. I once called her out and homophobic for assuming it’s a fetishized gay guys only thing and she got mad, but am I wrong?
You’re definitely not wrong. If she’s willing to undermine or criticize your clothes preference after you’ve already told her why you like them and you don’t want to change, what else is she willing to undermine?
I feel very comfortable sharing with her, especially since I grew up in an extremely conservative area of the south and she grew up in an upper class suburb in the Bay Area in California. She knows when I’m feeling “off” because it manifests in body language she picks up on and tries to get me to share (I.e. when I’m having work or family problems) but it’s been hard to break that “men don’t share their feelings” attitude I was raised with. She actually buys me clothing that is vibrant and traditionally female brands (lulu, Madewell, etc…). That’s why I was kind of taken aback when I first started wearing my thongs around her and she was like “are those women’s panties?” Because they were brightly colored pink pair of a male thong from MeUndies. I explained they are the comfortable for support when engaging in cardio and lifting and she was like, “I don’t like seeing you in them”.
In the same way I grew up in a very conservative area and this is a unique way to express myself and enjoy feeling sexy, I think she grew up in the opposite and that’s why she was attracted to stoic, lumbering me. She has jokingly called me a “brute” in a loving way and says she is fascinated how I just “power through” manual labor for 12 hours at a time on the weekend doing projects and lifting heavy stuff around our house. I think she just has a biological urge to see me as that big protector.
Also, she always talks about how she doesn’t like muscle on guys, but since we have been together I have put on a lot of muscle and the more I put on the more she is constantly squeezing my arms and shoulders and putting her head on my chest… but she has also noticed that other women will feel my arms in public and I think she gets a little jealous
Other women touching you in public without your consent is harassment
She chooses for image. She’s sympathetic. But, she’s no empathy for you valuing different facets in your choice. Is it just underwear or does this extend to more, possibly all choices?
We agree on the overwhelming majority of important things (politics, cleanliness, nutrition, children) but obviously we have different tastes within those areas, I love cashews, she hates them, I prefer lifting weights, she prefers Pilates, etc… This is just the one weird thing we get hung up on.
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Women love feminine men, but they won’t date one.
Yeah, it’s very strange. They talk about masculinity like it’s a negative trait but then that’s all they want in a relationship. Nature > Nurture
Which leaves men playing this crazy game where we need to be very masculine but never acknowledge it.
What’s crazy is I started “squaring up” on my spouse in the same way I would before fighting someone, I.e. standing upright, puffing out chest, flexing my lats out and staring down at her just for fun sometimes and I can tell in instant change in her body language where she gets turned on. I also started doing this with female friends randomly that I have no interest in, but just testing out how they respond. I would say like 70% of the time they end up touching you in some way, not sexually but like moving to my side and grabbing my arm and leaning into me. I’m surprised I don’t hear about this more. I think it’s a biological response.
She obviously likes the way you look in boxers. Maybe ask her to buy you some Saxx brand boxers: synthetic stretchy, great support, durable. Two pairs got me about 1k trail miles. I’ve since replaced everything.
How does their synthetic hold up?
I’ve always bought their cotton boxer briefs and it seems that in recent years the durability has gone down. They used to last a few years a pair, but new pairs start to look baggy and sad after about 4-6 months. (They’re honestly off the list of products I buy right now.)
Mine are all a couple years old. I’d expect the same enshitification across the product line.
I find my clothing by asking ultralight hikers, runners, and bicyclists.
We agree on the overwhelming majority of important things (politics, cleanliness, nutrition, children)
interesting first choice 🤡
Dude, I know this is a weird question, but where do you buy your underwear. I’ve been wanting to try it out, but I can’t really find a site that doesn’t fetishize thong underwear for men.
Btw, I think there’s nothing wrong with wearing something you’re comfortable in.
MeUndies. They have tons of colors, great return policy if you don’t like them or they don’t fit, and they don’t fetishize it. I know what you are saying, when I first started looking they had a very obvious “target demographic” that I’m not a part of. I just wanted a solid, normal, comfortable man thong. Before that, jockey had great men’s thongs and some women’s thongs that definitely fit men and don’t look feminine. I’m hoping that Meundies starts to do more fabric types in men’s thongs, women get all the light and silky fabrics….
Oh no! My husband just started wearing thongy underwear and I’m enjoying the view ;)
Also he is really enjoying them as well, guess they feel better than boxers
I’m glad for both of you and that you are both enjoying it! It’s honestly such a small thing to get hung up on in our relationship that I just brush it off and move on.
small thing to get hung up on
The thong, right?
small […] hung
I’m getting mixed signals here
Yes the thong
Try. https://moonieco.com/pages/monies like you’re not wearing under crackers at all
I am not always wearing thongs, and I really like MeUndies thongs and I have a lot of their trunks, too. She calls the trunks “my booty shorts” jokingly. She doesn’t mind when I wear those.
Domestic violence against men is usually ignored or blamed on the victim.
Here’s another thing that I was just reminded of in this very thread, lmfao:
Men are expected to accept unsolicited advice at face value when they want to vent, because we’re supposed to be the ones with all the answers, and if a man is complaining about a problem, then he’s obviously just missing the answer.
This actually blew up my last relationship, right at the beginning of the pandemic, when my girlfriend at the time was stressed from being laid off and we weren’t able to see each other due to the isolation orders.
She would try to vent to me about her problems, looking for support in a time of emotional vulnerability, and I, an inexperienced idiot just trying to be helpful, would suggest solutions that I thought she hadn’t considered. If you can’t guess exactly how that went, you’ve almost certainly never been in a serious relationship.
What made it worse is she would then say to stop mansplaining, which made me defensive because I thought she was tacitly accusing me of being intentionally misogynistic when I was honestly just trying to be helpful. At the time, I figured I just needed to adjust my approach a little bit, not completely change course. Unsurprisingly, that didn’t work.
It was only in hindsight, some time after she had dumped my dumb ass, and I had blocked and deleted her number, that I was complaining to my friends and getting the exact same kind of thing back that I realized, “oh wow, I get it now, that is actually really fucking annoying and invalidating.”
It was also around this time, while discussing my experiences with friends who have been diagnosed, that I realized that I might have ADHD. So that definitely hadn’t helped.
In the extremely unlikely event you’re reading this, K, I’m sorry. I figured out what I did wrong, just a little too late.
It’s not entirely on you. Accusing you of mansplaining is not cool, she should’ve just said something like “i’m sharing this because I’m looking for emotional support, not solutions, so please stop trying to solve my problems when I’m just venting”.
In a sense, how people react to having problems shared with them is a cultural difference, neither is right or wrong but they can be jarring and confusing when you’re used to one culture but interact with a different one. But it’s not fair to just assume the other culture is acting in bad faith
With my brother I’ve started asking “are you looking for advice or do you just want someone to vent to?”. I think most people can do better playing both roles.
In all fairness, she was pretty patient with me for a bit, but as I alluded to, I attempted to apply small course corrections when I should have tried a different course entirely. In reality, this was the cumulative effect of multiple different occasions.
See, my dumb ass didn’t think it was an issue with what I was saying, but how I was saying it. So I figured it was just a matter of trying to be more tactful with my suggestions. Obviously, that wasn’t it.
Sure, she could have been more mature and introspective about it, but so could I. So it’s kind of a wash.
I can’t really blame her because of the shit she was going through. There’s a bit more context that I don’t really want to get into on a public forum, but in hindsight her reaction is understandable.
Kinda hard not to blame myself when it was ultimately my fuck up, however. I’m still dealing with that over 4 years later.
Had a gf way back in the day explain this to me. “When we’re venting we want emotional support. Stop trying to give us solutions.”
Dated many women in the 25-years since I was given these wise words, seen the truth of that advice over and over. Yet I still struggle to STFU. It’s so prevalent among men, I wonder if we’re not hardwired to go into problem solving mode when confronted with an issue.
I think it’s because we feel that we can find the solution to the problem, it will stop the pain that our partner is feeling at the situation.
Because it is, right? Right?!? When your car brakes makes weird noises you replace them to fix it and stop whining. Why doesn’t this work with women too? /s
I’m sorry you equated me saying we want to help our partner feel better with ‘stop whining’.
I mean, if it’s a problem, fix it. If you don’t want it fixed, shut your cake hole.
Holy shit, it’s almost like men and women sometimes have different motivations! Maybe the problem isn’t the event, but how she feels about it. And maybe the solution is to let her get it off her chest instead of suppressing it. I know, us guys generally don’t like to deal with our feelings, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist, or that it wouldn’t be healthier if we did.
Feelings are shit. And no, I’m not being dismissive, I’m being metaphorical.
When you eat, you mash up the food with your mouth and saliva is added and then it gets pushed into your stomach with various glandular juices and it gets squished around into a paste and then pushed through your intestines where it is attacked by yet more enzymes and bacteria, nutrients and fluids are extracted and the unusable brown sludge that gets pushed out as a waste product is what we call “shit.” Who’s hungry?
When you perceive stimuli, electromagnetic, mechanical or chemical signals enter your senses, are transduced into action potentials which fire across synapses, signals travel along nerve cells to your brain where the processes of filtering and attending, perception and decoding happens, in a process I don’t think we fully understand yet, these perceptions are compared to memories, recognition, learning or insight occurs and the energy left over from this experience gets pushed out as a waste product that we call “feelings.”
If you take a bad shit, if it hurts, if it’s difficult, if it’s messy, it can be an indication that your body or your diet are unhealthy. If it’s too much of a problem for too long it’s time to talk to a healthcare professional because maybe you’ve got a condition. But if everything was fine and then you ate that suspiciously room temperature shrimp cocktail at that non-chain steakhouse 150 miles inland that hasn’t changed its decor since the 1980s, probably that’s the problem.
Deal with your bad feelings the same way you deal with a bad shit: troubleshoot, diagnose, take corrective action, return to service, monitor for further issues. Or do what women do and use your acquaintances and/or your Tiktok audience as feelings toilets, I guess. Just dump your shit onto other people to deal with.
The overall topic here is gender double standards, right? Well, I don’t get to use people as feelings toilets. So people don’t get to use me as a feelings toilet.
And there’s the toxic form of that sentiment
Yeah not wanting to be someone’s feelings toilet sure is toxic.
I struggle with this too. I think it’s because it feels so damned nonproductive to not try and figure out how to make things better. Matter of fact, it feels like how I approach people dumping personal problems at work…indifference I suppose. And that’s the last thing I want to show someone I care about. So it weighs me down.
I’ve taken to asking questions from different angles during the venting, and this seems to be my best strategy. Results are mixed.
I’ve accepted that I can’t be one of these “there, there” people because I don’t enjoy feeling useless. I care, what’s being said matters to me, but I can’t be myself in the situation. And that feels bad.
Ah, the “it’s not about the nail” situation. https://youtu.be/-4EDhdAHrOg
Well, kind of the exact opposite of that. I realize that’s meant to be satire, but that kind of attitude is what got me into trouble.
I left out the exact details for brevity and privacy, but it was a situation where there wasn’t a simple answer. I just didn’t have a good grasp of the concept of active listening.
I was trying to engage with what she was saying, because she had previously told me that it seemed like I didn’t care about her problems. But I just wasn’t saying the right things.
In reality, my previous approach had revolved around keeping my mouth shut because then there was no way I could say anything to fuck it up. But then, in large part thanks to my undiagnosed ADHD, I would tune out without realizing it.
So I engaged in the only way I knew how, by trying to rationalize her experiences when I should have been empathizing with them.
So I engaged in the only way I knew how, by trying to rationalize her experiences when I should have been empathizing with them.
Ah, ok. I’m essentially the same as the person in the video. I didn’t talk about something unless I want help and the situation fixed. Otherwise, I kept to myself, and I treated others the same. It was a rough young adulthood.
I definitely had to have a chat with my SO about letting me vent without problem solving. I still have to remind them from time to time. Some people are just solution-minded like that.
Had to learn this the hard way myself.
Now I literally ask when it isn’t obvious. Do you want support or solutions? It’s rarely the latter but at least we’re both on the same page.
be happy it turned out the way it did.
Here it is, folks, case in fucking point.
Did I ask, at any point, for opinions on how I should be feeling about any of this? I don’t think so.
Yes. You posted it on the internet. We’re not your ex. This is a public forum. Go blog if you want to vent without someone else saying something.
you invited ths beast to appear, now deal with it like a man.
No one calls a woman a babysitter or says she’s “giving dad a break” when she’s somewhere with her own children.
I’m about 30. I have friends my age with young (toddler) daughters. They’ve had the police called on them walking with their own child. I’ve had the police called on me watching their daughter for them (these are friends I’ve had for 12 years, I’m basically her uncle).
Men are assumed to be predators if they are near children.
I used to take my twin daughters to the park and we would have daddy day while their mom was at work swing shifts.
We had pizza at the park, and it worked out because changing their diapers on a shitty blanket was easier than fumbling around on a bench since no one thought to put a diaper tray in any of the men’s restrooms.
Had the police called on me a few times. Never did they take the call seriously after showing up. One female officer told a Karen that she is annotating this as a fraud call because anyone with half a brain would realize it’s a dad eating pizza with his kids rather than a kidnapper molesting children in public.
Mom changes a diaper? No one cares.
I think its the larger double standard; men are sex monsters. A woman and a man can’t be friends. A child with a man is in danger.
This is connected to; Intimacy is feminine. Men can only be vulnerable or gentle with their partners or families, if then. Its not universal, obviously, but the callous lover and the distant father are not so uncommon so as to be unrecognizable. Intimacy between men is also considered feminine, unless in the military or team sports.
It’s a world we created as well. Every double standard listed in this thread is a double standard. But it is also something cultivated by the Patriarchy.
doing oppositely gendered activities.
my girlfriend can change the oil in her car and lifts weights?
cool. healthy.
i can sew my own clothes and bake?
Weird. Creepy.
i can sew my own clothes and bake?
Weird. Creepy.
Hard disagree. I wish I knew how (and had the time to) make my own clothes. And, who doesn’t love baked goods? These both sound awesome.
“Girly” things are ok as a career, but not a hobby.
If you’re a professional Tailor, it’s a respectable job that people seek you out for, but if you just like to sew…
Chefs are predominantly male, but if you’re a guy that just likes to cook, “what are you, a housewife?”
I guess it’s cultural, or regional, or just who you spend time around. Among my male friends, most of whom are straight and married with children, I don’t think any of them would even blink an eye at either of these things.
I do have colleagues from other cultures and US regions (US Italian, Central America, rust belt) who I’d bet would act the way you describe. I’m not jealous of that aspect of those cultures.
For sure, and I appreciate that.
They’re great skills, and if you watch a couple YouTube videos on making your own clothes, you’ll be shocked at how simple it is and how little time it takes.
I feel very comfortable sewing and baking, this is just the best answers I have for the question.
You can find a used machine to practice with and start by fixing and altering.
Local indy sewing shops that I’ve encountered have been happy to advise and some have open sewing days.
I fix my outdoors gear and clothes routinely, often with hand-stitching, just takes practice.
Thankfully, I’m not completely void of any sewing skill. I can hem pants, or repair some outdoor gear, as you mentioned. But, I don’t think I could make a complete shirt that didn’t look homemade.
I have a massive wingspan:weight ratio, so I always have to choose between sleeves being long enough on a shirt that’s 4x too big, or sleeves that end 3 inches short on a shirt that mostly fits. If I could make my own shirts and hoodies from scratch, it would be great. I just have too many other hobbies, and not enough time to dedicate to learning a new one right now.
I have a massive wingspan:weight ratio, so I always have to choose between sleeves being long enough on a shirt that’s 4x too big, or sleeves that end 3 inches short on a shirt that mostly fits.
So you look like you just sauntered out of Auschwitz?
<rant>
You’re the reason why most shirts don’t fit me. I hate “slim fit” shirts, and anything fashionable is so slim fit you would have trouble fitting it over a skeleton or a 1,000-year-old Sahara-desiccated corpse. Why is your kind so common that the marketplace gets flooded with clothing that can only fit a famine victim?
And I’m not obese in the least. I just have a 50-inch chest with a 36-inch waist. I have pecs, not some wafer-thin slabs of barely-there muscle that would have trouble bench-pressing an onion scape.
About the only thing that fits me are 2XL tops that are regular or relaxed fit. Even jackets have gotten into the “reverse-vanity-sizing” madness that has recently beset Canada, with many “size 50” suit jackets really being a size 46 or even a 44.
</rant>
.
even just knowing enough to not consider clothes ruined when a button pops out or a tear forms would be nice
Yeah, I was in Costco buying new cookie sheets and an old lady said it was so nice that I was helping out. Lady, they’re for me, I’m the baker here.
It took decades before Hasbro Easy Bake Ovens were marketed in the US in Yellow and Black rather than Mattel Barbie™️ Fuchsia Pink (💕) which is still the standard in US department stores. Curiously gender neutral colors started from demand in Sweden and expanded outward.
In the nineties, Barbie was built like only a select few Playboy Bunnies (Jessica Rabbit’s dimensions are physiologically impossible. A robot, maybe) and Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader action figures were ripped like He-Man (or soon-to-be Governor of California Arnold Schwarzenegger).
Gender roles are (to me) extremely weird.
Eh, if she’s old that’s excusable. Expectations were different back then
No one thinks it’s creepy for a guy to sew and bake.
no one you know.
that’s nice, really.
Anyone who would think that would not be worth my time. I would never give them that power over me.
that’s good, they’re not.
and you shouldn’t.
You’d be surprised how hard it is to get on in life if you’re surrounded by people like this, you can’t just ignore half the people around you all the time, especially if you’re forced to interact with them.
I lift and I sew. Fuck that noise, you do you.
You gotta learn to sew when you’re constantly ripping your shirt with each flex.
Disagree but upvoting because I’m sure this is true for some.
As a man, I have never gotten any shit for sewing. But I do give plenty of people shit for not sewing.
Fix your clothes people, a needle and thread are not that freaking complicated. You don’t need to learn how to use it, just push the needle through the fabric, you’ll figure it out.
Sure, with practice you can make it prettier, but whatever.
I don’t think that’s exactly true. As a woman I’ve had situations where I was questioned even when I knew exactly what I was talking about just because it was a traditionally male activity.
Yes, I know what type of battery I want for my car. Yes, I know it’s uncommon, I checked if you had it in your website before I came here. Yes, I know how to install it and I don’t want to pay you to do it. Shut up and take my money so I can leave.
I have several stories like this. In home renovation stores men that work there are always super opinionated on the problem that I’m trying to solve. I’m just looking for the supplies I want, I didn’t ask for opinions.
It doesn’t help that I’m small and look young, but still they should mind their own business.
No, it is. I had women joke and say “what are you, gay?”, then laugh when they find out I can sew. Have stitched up many a stuffed animal. The guys ask me where did I learn that?
“The army”
Oh, that’s cool.
I agree that men also get flack for doing activities associated with women, my answer to the original comment is disagreeing with the double standard part. I think it’s bad both ways and therefore not a double standard
Probably mostly to do with being a woman, though even if a nerdy looking dude came in they’d probably get similar treatment. Partially just how they expect someone who “knows what they’re doing” to look like (mechanics knowledge = man in jeans)
Also, it’s not just targeted at people perceived as “other” in many of these traditionally masculine realms.
Often, it seems like so many of these men see patronizing and second guessing as the only ways to establish and defend their own credibility on their given subject. It’s not just the “oh it’s a woman/someone who doesn’t look the part…I bet they don’t know what they’re doing” factor, it’s also that they’re a product of the culture that tells them that the most important thing is that they’re perceived as more knowledgeable than anyone else, and that the only way to establish that is to have their own opinions and views on every subject in the field, and then aggressively defend and promote those views while dismissing, undermining, and discouraging any views that conflict with theirs…or the people who hold those views.
And it’s not just big picture “world view” type stuff. It’s crap like, “which brand makes the best widget in your hobby?”. If they’re a “brand red” guy, they feel the need to not only let everyone know that they like brand red…they have to let everyone know that brand red is the best, and that it’s objective, and that if you prefer brand blue, you’re just a clueless newbie who hasn’t learned yet. If you like brand green, well you’ve just been taken in by their marketing. And if you’re one of those brand orange people, well you know what they say about those people…
Are you sure those home renovation workers weren’t trying to make conversation, might even being bragging about their own project attempts and you being a women had nothing to do with how they interact with any other customer?
I can never be sure, I’m not inside their heads, but I don’t remember ever seeing this behavior directed at my husband or dad when tagging along with them in similar situations.
I sew and bake and no one ever says anything negative about it. It’s usually a topic of conversation. And back in the day when I had been called gay for enjoying baking by some insecure guy or weirdo girl I just laughed it off. Because it was usually after they finished eating a delicious treat I made and brought into the office or something.
OK there are some “feminine activities” where people would bat an eye but sewing and baking? Lmao I don’t think anyone would care.
Except if you fuck up making cookies, like me last week 😭
haha, woo! those are some hockey pucks!
i get eyes a-fluttering anytime either is brought up, but it’s good you have faith in your community.
People who think that are creepy and weird.
They are also the majority.
Clothes in general, I could borrow my husband’s shirt and nobody would bat an eye but I’d he borrowed mine (he can’t because I’m smaller, but assuming we were the same size-ish) would look strange.
I don’t think groping is gonna be ignored in any workplace, in any direction.
I’ve read enough accounts from both men and women to know that sexual harassment is not taken seriously at many places.
In some workplaces it’s even ignored in both directions. At last, true gender equality! /s
Many (basically all) companies will completely ignore an issue until they’re absolutely forced to act on it, it’s pretty par for the course.
Huh? Groping is ignored much of the time if done by a woman to a man
Groping is very much ignored in both directions at work
ITT about male victims of sexism-based double-standard, we see
- stories of female victims
- downvoting stories of male victims
- the top-voted post about how men can’t speak up for fear of being shouted down
Wow, Lemmy. Be better than Reddit.
That is exactly why I’m downvoting many of the comments here. Not personal stories, but all the “men have it so much worse” comments, which are ultimately just toxic against women.
Because holy fuck, that was exactly Reddit, and I do not want this place to end up the same. We already have a massive imbalance between the genders and if we men start discrediting women, they’re most fucking definitely not going to show up here.
I do want men to be able to speak about abuse stories. That is where our patriarchical society kills men, in that it does not allow us to show weakness. But it cannot fucking devolve into a us vs. them discussion, which this whole question is locked and loaded towards. That is not helpful to anyone.
I’m aghast at the comments in here lol
Like… I’m speechless.
This thread and ones like it just prove the point
In dating or marriage: If a female partner criticizes on her male’s choice of outfit, it’s totally normal. If a male criticizes the choice of outfit of his female partner… a fight is imminent.
Sounds like an unhealthy relationship to me instead of a double standard but whatever.
The whole question of double standards is in a sense, asking about common unhealthy traits
Both are very common, so it’s easy to confuse them.
I see this all the time and my wife can give to hoots what I wear so I have no realtionship issue, but I see it all the time. Honestly it is a realtionship thing. Anyone can criticize a males outfit without to much blowback. If asked an not in a realtionship with a women a man can criticize a womens outfit minorly. If in a relationship they have to have an especially easy going significant other. Like my wife.
Insane expectations being placed on women around beauty and appearance, and the resulting insecurities that creates, play a big role in this
Being held culpable for the brutality some powerful men wield against women because of the “patriarchy”. But also being at fault when women with power exploit or abuse men.
The problem is dominance hierarchy, which expresses itself as patriarchy most of the time.
But not always, and places on this earth exist where a matriarchic hierarchy is similarly asserted.
Obligatorily, no war but class war.
I find it hilarious when people get upset about “no war but class war” as if the sexist and racist systems we experience aren’t just symptoms of a heavily stratified society
