Ten Chinese air force aircraft entered Taiwan's air defence zone on Wednesday accompanying five Chinese warships engaged in "combat readiness" patrols, the island's defence ministry said, the second such incursion this week.
  • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
    20236·
    11 months ago

    Ten Chinese air force aircraft entered Taiwan’s air defence zone . . . Of those aircraft, the ministry said 10 had either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait, which previously served as an unofficial barrier between the two sides, or entered the southwestern part of Taiwan’s air defence identification zone, or ADIZ.

    For those unfamiliar with the Air Defense Identification Zone:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Defense_Identification_Zone_(Taiwan)

    Not only does it include a lot of water that isn’t part of the Strait, right off of China’s coast, it also includes a portion of Mainland China a few times larger than Taiwan itself.

    People like to talk like China is flying jets over Taipei City, but you can fly a plane from one city in Mainland China to another, only passing over land, and be in this zone. Mind you, I don’t think Taiwan having this zone is bad – countries generally should be aware of air traffic nearby – but this is part of a long history of alarmist headlines by western media regarding what is often very uninteresting air traffic in the PRC.

      • zephyreks@lemmy.ca
        3·
        11 months ago

        “Ten Chinese air force aircraft entered Taiwan’s air defence zone on Wednesday”

        The article says ADIZ, not airspace.

  • Frank [he/him, he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
    13016·
    11 months ago

    Is this that stupid shit where their air defense zone covers a huge chunk of mainland China and they freak out every time China flies Chinese planes over China?

    • randint@lemm.ee
      225·
      11 months ago

      If you actually read the article,

      Of those aircraft, the ministry said 10 had either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait, which previously served as an unofficial barrier between the two sides, or entered the southwestern part of Taiwan’s air defence identification zone, or ADIZ.

      you would find that 10 aircrafts either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait or entered the southwestern part of the ADIZ. Neither of those is “flying over mainland China.”

        • randint@lemm.ee
          1312·
          11 months ago

          It is, but it was clearly done to provoke Taiwan. Calling this a moot point is like saying that laughing at homeless people is fine because it is not illegal.

          • brain_in_a_box [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
            707·
            11 months ago

            If you consider China flying planes on its coastline to be unacceptable provocation, I’d love to know what you consider the USA sending ships half way around the world to that same coastline.

            • randint@lemm.ee
              77·
              11 months ago

              China did not just fly planes on its coastline. They crossed the median line, which is an unofficial line that has been dividing the Taiwan Strait for decades. Planes and vessels from China and those from Taiwan would not cross this line to show mutual respect. China is purposely breaking this unwritten convention. See how they usually just barely cross the median line, fly parallel to the line for a bit and head back? Neither are the planes passenger planes, they are fighter jets. This is different from the US sending ships through the Strait. Sending a military ship through the Strait is a provocation to China, but it is much weaker than the direct provocation of the fighter jets crossing the median line.

              • meth_dragon [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
                436·
                11 months ago

                you realize that the uptick in frequency of these ‘provocations’ only started in response to the pelosi visit? the incident that had a considerable portion of the entire chinese population howling for the cpc to shoot down the plane and engulf the world in nuclear fire? this is the cpc’s way of appeasing its very large and very rabid nationalist constituency (who are very disappointed that they have not died in a nuclear armageddon, btw) and it is a meme on the chinese internet that despite all of its rhetoric, this pathetic level of ‘not touching you’ fuckery is somehow the lowest that the cpc is willing to stoop to when faced with a de jure violation of its sovereignty.

                • Gucci_Minh [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
                  332·
                  11 months ago

                  Broke: Don’t shoot down Pelosi because it would spark a war

                  Woke: Don’t shoot down Pelosi because it means she can go back to America and speed up their decline

                • randint@lemm.ee
                  34·
                  11 months ago

                  I do realize, but is Pelosi visiting Taiwan Taiwan’s “fault”?

                • randint@lemm.ee
                  68·
                  11 months ago

                  No, I meant Taiwan. Chinese Taipei is only used in sports games.

              • iie [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
                31·
                11 months ago

                They crossed the median line

                idk dog, the wording in the article leaves some weird wiggle room.

                Of those aircraft, the ministry said 10 had either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait, which previously served as an unofficial barrier between the two sides, or entered the southwestern part of Taiwan’s air defense identification zone, or ADIZ.

          • radiofreeval [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
            637·
            11 months ago

            Ah yes, China provokes other nations militarily, just don’t look at who’s bases surround them. The only one chomping at the bit for war here is the US

      • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
        513·
        11 months ago

        The southwestern quadrant still includes a bit of mainland China and is mostly outside of the Strait, not to mention that all of the Strait is still in the ADIZ.

  • ThomasMuentzner [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
    13018·
    11 months ago

    okay guys , so since this hole federation stuff your Pro Imperial Wrong Takes comes my way , it must be corrected …

    this is Taiwans Air Identification Zone it is a Bullshit leftover that spans so vast over china that it simply can not be not violated ,… theirby producing the most wonderfull “Permanent - Saturaton - Propaganda” of China Bad Bakround noise for the Imperial core audience in their Echo Chambers .

    PS: this is where real Journalist go in the west , when they start beeing critical of non approved subjects.

    “Good thing propaganda only ever happens to other people”

      • YearOfTheCommieDesktop [they/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
        271·
        11 months ago

        That literally only happened because the USSR and China would not and could not vote on it (respectively) because the UN was insisting that the KMT who only controlled taiwan were the legitimate representatives of china, and the USSR was boycotting the UN votes on principle.

        The point isn’t “UN is infallible” the point is “Even anti-communist countries in the UN agreed that PRC is the legitimate government of all of China.”

        • CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org
          2·
          11 months ago

          Yes, the UN is an authority on what most nations once thought, if that’s all that’s being argued for. At one point there was an understanding that Taiwan is to be de facto independent and de jure a part of China. Now China is pushing back on the de facto independence a bit, and the US is pushing back on the de jure union with China a bit.

          The UN proper is not an authority on anything other than what clubhouse members publicly agree, and can’t otherwise be used as an argument from authority, which is how this came across.

    • Hadriscus@lemm.ee
      164·
      11 months ago

      As a french dude, and given our history, I have no choice but to stand against all imperialisms. Claiming a territory against the will of its people is exactly what imperialism is. France has done that for centuries along with most of the european powers of the time. Imperialism is criminal, it is murderous, and profoundly unjust. It is nothing less than colonisation. Just let people live on their own terms.

      • nohaybanda [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
        483·
        11 months ago

        Claiming a territory against the will of its people is exactly what imperialism is

        In case you’re interested in learning more about imperialism from a Marxist perspective, I’d recommend Lenin’s Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism. You don’t have to agree with it, but I don’t believe you can have a complete understanding of the way Global South countries have been exploited and subjugated in the last century or so without being aware of the arguments made in this book. The fact that so many of the post WW2 anti-colonial liberation movements were ML or MLM should tell you something.

        Also, China doesn’t have to claim anything. Elsewhere in this thread people have already pointed out that under International Law Chinese Taipei is already part of China. No country in the world recognizes the ROC or Taiwan as an independent country. To the extent that the populace of the island has a position on this, it’s split between wanting to retain a special status within China or separatism. And let’s be real here, no country in the world is down with separatist movements. Ask the Kurds, or the Basques, or the Catalonians, or the Chechens etc etc. Hell, let Texas try and secede and see what happens. Realistically, only once Capitalism and Nationalism are both dead and forgotten can humanity start to move away from this geopolitical reality.

        • Hadriscus@lemm.ee
          81·
          11 months ago

          Thanks, appreciate the reading suggestion!

          Also, China doesn’t have to claim anything. Elsewhere in this thread people have already pointed out that under International Law Chinese Taipei is already part of China.

          How foreign countries consider Taiwan may very well define reality, it’s also illegitimate. Would you let someone else tell you what you are ? I consider the only valid stance as per the independence of a territory to be what its citizens have democratically decided. I gather from your reply we’re not actually debating this, my bad.

          To the extent that the populace of the island has a position on this, it’s split between wanting to retain a special status within China or separatism

          Yes, this is my experience as well

          • gaycomputeruser [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
            20·
            11 months ago

            Other countries recognition of your government is one of the key parts of having a government be the government of the place and not a band of dudes in charge. International recognition has long been used as a bargining token by most countries. It wouldn’t be used if it wasn’t incredibly valuable. Want to join the un? Be recognized by other un members. Want to be able to sign treaties and deals? Need recognition that you’re a real state.

      • edge [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
        391·
        11 months ago

        Claiming a territory against the will of its people is exactly what imperialism is.

        It is nothing less than colonisation.

        You mean like when the KMT fled to Taiwan, brutalized the natives, and colonized it, imposing four decades of martial law?

        • Hadriscus@lemm.ee
          3·
          11 months ago

          If you’d like to try being constructive, you can drop the FFS and follow up with reading advice, for instance, or a bit of your own. It doesn’t have to be long winded, it can just be a couple sentences. This is a good habit to make your own, and replace the waving off with.

        • Hadriscus@lemm.ee
          33·
          11 months ago

          The opposition is the people. Do you actually know anyone from Taiwan ?

          • heartheartbreak [fae/faer]@hexbear.netEnglish
            43·
            11 months ago

            The opposition is not “the people”. “The people” just want to live peaceful lives without having the US betting their empire on causing WW III in their backyard. In order to properly oppose imperialism, especially as a first worlder, you need to understand the class interests of monopoly capital and how the emergence of finance capital combining with the force and violence of the state is where imperialism comes from. China has never couped a sitting head of state in order to create a banana republic to enslave the populations and resources of another country. There’s valid criticisms to be made but ur shooting yourself in the dick if you’re criticizing without education on it.

            • Hadriscus@lemm.ee
              12·
              11 months ago

              Right, I am quite uneducated on China, I’m only speaking from experience discussing with people from Taiwan. I certainly don’t intend to wear a phallus cast

              • heartheartbreak [fae/faer]@hexbear.netEnglish
                28·
                11 months ago

                In my experiences talking with most non-right wing Taiwanese people is simply that they want peace and to not be used as a geopolitical pawn for imperialist motives. I think this is a fairly reasonable position and would hope for at least some form of peaceful rapprochement where some amount of autonomy can be established like in the other autonomous regions in China.

                The issue is that the current western hegemonic world order helmed by the US is seeking a point of conflict with China to prevent them from effectively disrupting the current status quo which you are probably aware of: imperialism, neocolonialism and unequal exchange. With capitalisms need to continually expand we see again it’s need for war in order to establish new markets. Its probably humanity’s number one priority to prevent the upcoming world crisis and as many emerging wars as possible (especially considering what that would do to climate change). Combatting the propaganda designed to manufacture consent for an upcoming war with China is the most important thing that a leftist can be doing in regards to geopolitics.

                • Hadriscus@lemm.ee
                  19·
                  11 months ago

                  With capitalisms need to continually expand we see again it’s need for war in order to establish new markets.

                  I can understand that. The reliance on war economy is something I learned from Daniel Guérin in “Fascism & capital”.

                  The issue is that the current western hegemonic world order helmed by the US is seeking a point of conflict with China to prevent them from effectively disrupting the current status quo

                  Alright

                  Combatting the propaganda designed to manufacture consent for an upcoming war with China is the most important thing that a leftist can be doing in regards to geopolitics

                  Fair enough, I understand. Thanks for the breakdown

            • Hadriscus@lemm.ee
              31·
              11 months ago

              lol, that’s an answer worthy of a five year old right here. But it does answer my question fairly transparently.

      • emizeko [they/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
        91·
        11 months ago

        Lenin undertook his detailed study of Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism in 1916, basing it on the research of an English economist named Hobson. His analysis continues to explain what is happening in the world today as we enter the 21st Century.

        Lenin saw capitalism evolving into a higher stage. The key to understanding it was an economic analysis of the transition to monopoly: “…imperialism is the monopoly stage of capitalism.” As Lenin would point out in another article written in 1916 (Imperialism and the Split in Socialism), imperialism was a new development that had been predicted but not yet seen by Marx and Engels.

        Lenin provides a careful, 5-point definition of imperialism: “(1) the concentration of production and capital has developed to such a high stage that it has created monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life; (2) the merging of bank capital with industrial capital, and the creation, on the basis of this “finance capital”, of a financial oligarchy; (3) the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance; (4) the formation of international monopolist capitalist associations which share the world among themselves, and (5) the territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers is completed. Imperialism is capitalism at that stage of development at which the dominance of monopolies and finance capital is established; in which the export of capital has acquired pronounced importance; in which the division of the world among the international trusts has begun, in which the division of all territories of the globe among the biggest capitalist powers has been completed.”

        the bourgeoisie are increasingly compelled by a falling rate of profit to use their dominance of the state apparatus to open new markets or access to resource extraction

      • SuperNovaCouchGuy2 [any]@hexbear.netEnglish
        5·
        11 months ago

        As a french dude…

        Opinion rejected gigachad

        You continue your shit hole’s history of imperialism by dictating what is right and wrong for a colored mans nation to do in a faraway geopolitical situation you are largely uninformed about. And the fucking gall of using the bloody history of your barbaric country’s colonial exploits as a way to give such pontifications some form of authority. Lmao shut the fuck up and sit down you arrogant bastard.

        • Hadriscus@lemm.ee
          1·
          11 months ago

          There are ways to say things without being overly agressive. Take a deep breath. Remember, people aren’t their country. I wouldn’t associate you with some warfare your country has committed, because I have no reason to assume you have anything to do with it. All the best,

          • SuperNovaCouchGuy2 [any]@hexbear.netEnglish
            4·
            11 months ago

            Remember, people aren’t their country.

            As a french dude, and given our history…

            Pick one lmfao ofc you aren’t a representative of your entire pissant failed state but the fact remains that your shameful nationality is the only real thing you grounded the validity of your pontifications on. I will be “overly aggressive” towards imperialist troglodytes like yourself and you will do nothing but continue to cry, whine, and seethe because you are an illiterate maggotbrained shit who stands on nothing.

            The only people who have the damn right to speak on the issue of imperialism are the victims of your demonic nation and their descendants, not the legacy of the evil bastards who committed such evil crimes against humanity in the first place. Especially since the fucking country you point to is still entangled in a multitude of white supremacist neocolonialist atrocities to this day, utterly ridiculous whataboutery and arrogance but not surprising from a white frenchoid.

    • randint@lemm.ee
      57·
      11 months ago

      Never, ever have I thought I’d see the words “台灣是中國神聖不可分割的一部分” in English being used unironically.

  • OceanSoap@lemmy.ml
    635·
    11 months ago

    Goddammit, I do NOT want us to be propping up a war in Ukraine and fighting an actual war with China.

    • CloutAtlas [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
      9113·
      11 months ago

      My dude calls people statists but then also cites death tolls spouted by the US State department on Mao’s casualties is a level of mental gymnastics that may finally dethrone the Maga morons.

      I’m sure there’s some explanation for how Mao killed 100,000,000 people but somehow the population of China went up and the life expectancy doubled under him. It can’t be because the US stat dept. exaggerated the deaths by an exponent tho.

      这个老外真过瘾，哈哈

      • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
        56·
        11 months ago

        China is fascist now, they can go on calling themselves communist in a vain attempt to have something resembling legitimacy. But any fool knows that when the ruling party is full of billionaires, that’s no communist system.

        They Chinese people are a great people and deserve a better government than the fascist regime lead by Winnie Xi Pooh.

          • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
            21·
            11 months ago

            How is it racism to say Chinese people are great people?

            It’s just their government sucks. They deserve better.

            • Flinch [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
              9·
              11 months ago

              I’m excited to hear you explain how comparing a Chinese man to a cartoon character with yellow skin and beady eyes isn’t racist nicholson-yes

              • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
                5·
                11 months ago

                Because it’s not saying Chinese people look like Winnie the Pooh. It’s only Xi looks like Winnie the Pooh. Do you understand the distinction between insulting an ethnicity and insulting an individual?

                And you must’ve been living under a rock (or behind a firewall in an authoritarian country) if you’ve never heard of Xi being compared to Winnie the Pooh. I hear he’s sensitive about it, and it’s banned to make such statements in China. But since I’m not in China and Xi is a piece of shit, this incentivizes me to insult that shithead in ways that hurts his fragile little ego.

                Oh bother!

                • Flinch [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
                  122·
                  11 months ago

                  Xi is Chinese you dipshit, you are comparing a Chinese man to a cartoon character with yellow skin and beady eyes. Please, continue. xinternet

        • CloutAtlas [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
          191·
          11 months ago

          I know we are a great people. I am Chinese.

          You have it wrong. The Communist Party isnt producing billionaires or getting rich through corruption (at least not in the recent decade of anti corruption). Billionaires join the CPC for THEIR benefit, clout and image.

          China is the only country that actually punishes billionaires for their crimes instead of giving them a slap on the wrist, house arrest or just straight up not punishing them. China executes billionaires when they commit a crime. Liu Han ordered a Mafia hit on a villager who protested one of his illegal real estate expansions, as well as a business rival. He was executed for murder. China is the only country in the world that would sentence someone worth $40 billion, let alone to death, let alone not given a presidential pardon. Jack Ma regularly oversteps and gets punished by the CPC.

          The only billionaire the west has executed is Jeff Epstein (for entirely the wrong reasons). China’s executed 14+ in the last decade.

          If there was a snap election todaty in China with 100% voter turnout, the Communist Party would be re-elected tonight. The party responsible for improving the lives for 1.4 billion people actually isn’t disliked in China. The Chinese are not without grievances with the government but literally no other political system in the world has matched Chinese progress over the last 70 years. The average Chinese person isn’t unaware of western Liberal democracy, it simply isn’t appealing. A system that’s basically a popularity contest that elects senile old men, cowboy actors and reality TV stars that have no business being statesmen is actually not a good system. Having lifetime appointed judges to interpret the words of long dead slave owners is not a good system. Having a leadership spill and a change of prime minister every year is not a good system. We can improve on freedom of expression, sure, but the Chinese people aren’t sheep who need to be liberated. Neoliberalism is the failure in the world, not the Chinese model.

          • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
            61·
            11 months ago

            Billionaires join the CPC for THEIR benefit, clout and image.

            Yeah that’s how it works in a fascist system. The wealthy join the ruling party and gain connections to other wealthy people so they can all become wealthier.

            The existence of billionaires in China indicates that China is not communist. If it were communist the wealth of the billionaires would be seized and redistributed to the people. China is a country where billionaires are legal and labour unions are illegal.

            And your obsession with executions is indicative devaluing life. And it’s interesting that you buy into the conspiracy that Epstein was killed to silence him but haven’t considered the possibility that executions happen in China for the same reason.

            If there was a snap election todaty in China with 100% voter turnout, the Communist Party would be re-elected tonight.

            Then why isn’t there an election? Why aren’t opposition parties allowed in China? If the CCP would easily win an election, why not have them?

            It’s because China is fascist. I think you’re confusing fascism with corporatism. They’re not at all the same. in fascism there’s a hierachy and corporations benefit by falling in line with the hierarchy. Winnie Xi Pooh (who shouldn’t even be leader, but pesky rules bout term limits don’t apply to autocrats) is at the top. Questioning his authority gets you executed. The leadership of China is most certainly misogynistic. The propaganda in China is all about century of humiliation kind of things. China is anti-democracy. These are all the properties of a fascist system.

            And yeah fascists will lie about being left wing. See “National Socialism”.

            • CloutAtlas [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
              92·
              11 months ago

              Billionaires exist as a necessary evil, they’re not deities like they are to the west like Gates or Bezos, or a pillar of power like Russian oligarchs. China may not be Marxist as it is, but to completely cut away from the rest of the globe would be suicide. Market socialism relies on being a necessary part of the global economy, and China being able to manufacture in it’s current state while being able to raise the conditions of the proletariat makes it either the worst socialist state or the best capitalist state. Neither is worth of the vitriol it has received. If they must exist, better they exist for the benefit of the people rather than own media companies that push right wing agenda.

              The fixation with executions comes from the accusation that billionaires are in charge. It they truly were, they wouldn’t be subject to the same laws as the common folk, and yet herr they are. Unlike Russia or the west, they are held accountable for their actions to a higher degree. All else equal, the CPC treats billionaires worse than any other form of government, and that’s not a bad thing.

              For your second point re: elections: Why? The US doesn’t even have free elections, an electoral college overrules pupular vote, nor does the UK, the king and house of Lords aren’t subject to democracy. The Soviets had a free election in 91, voted to remain socialist,nand it was hijacked by the west. Allende was democratically elected and the west supported the usurper. An election while liberalism exists is just inviting interference. Taiwan didn’t have elections for 4 decades and were still beloved by liberalss. The house of Saud doesn’t have elections, did 9/11 and is a close US ally.

              If the outcome is obvious, why waste time and resources to indulge western sensibilities, as if bourgeoisie democracy is a human norm, when you can skip that step and move on with increasing society? If it just leads to a Chinese Jan 6th, or worse, why would that possibly be on the table? The CPC would win and somehow the losers would obtain US military grade weapons and seize power. And even if there were no interference and the CPC won anyway, guess what? Every paper in the west would claim it was rigged.

              • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
                21·
                11 months ago

                Ren Zhengfei, the CEO of Huawei, has had people arrested and thrown into a dungeon. Billionaires here don’t have that level of power.

                You keep imagining yourself as some communist revolutionary, but you’re just another useful idiot that’s been fooled by fascist propaganda.

                You should know that fascists are liars and will even label themselves as “communist” if it furthers their goals of acquiring power.

                After the ruling party of China did the Tiananmen Square massacre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests_and_massacre) and got away with it, they shifted to being fascist thugs whose only goal was to maintain and expand their power.

                If you’re gonna support fascist thugs, at least be honest about who they are. You look really silly otherwise.

                • CloutAtlas [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
                  91·
                  11 months ago

                  Source? Zhengfei couldn’t even keep his own daughter out of prison. Xi has been the one to crack down on billionaires (part of why a lot of my family like him better than Hu) so if it happened ages ago, I don’t remember. Even so, he’s less wealthy than Jack Ma, who is subject to the CPC’s rules, not vice versa.

                  All I know is the CPC has done more for the working class, lifted more workers out of poverty than any of the government’s that have earned your respect.

                  If all they wanted to do post 1989 was to maintain and expand power why the fuck haven’t they? Mongolia is right there, the Qing annexed it, the ROC annexed it, but the PRC can’t? Why forgive loans for Africa?

                  Why exempt Tibetans and Uyghurs and Mongolians from the One Child Policy? What kind of fascism does population control on the Han majority but not the minorities in their country?

                  If the goal was to acquire power, there are dozens of regimes that have done a better job at seizing absolute power, but instead the CPC open up more? The Juche government of the DPRK has absolute power, why didn’t China cloister itself from the world like pre Deng? Or start proxy wars in foreign countries to push nationalist jingoism?

                  I support my countrymen, no fascist thugs. If you’ve ever been to China you’d know it’s not some Orwellian nightmare state. Listening to the media’s portrayal of China when they lie or twist the truth on just about anything else is the brain worm talking. China’s fascist like Saddam has WMDs.

                  Think about where you’ve gotten your conception of China from and question whether or not they’re biased. You’re talking to someone with first hand experience in China.

        • immuredanchorite [he/him, any]@hexbear.netEnglish
          16·
          11 months ago

          They Chinese people are a great people and deserve a better government than the fascist regime lead by Winnie Xi Pooh.

          “I am totally not racist, I love the chinese people. I just love endlessly repeating that their leader is a yellow bear! funny, right?”

          so-true frothingfash smuglord

          Idk how to tell you this, but the CPC and the Chinese state have like 90% approval from the Chinese people according to western academic sources beloved by libs.

          • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
            32·
            11 months ago

            Damn, you figured out that I’m part of a super secret intelligence agency.

            Now I’ll have to go to the safehouse, get plastic surgery to change my appearance, dye my hair, burn off my finger prints, get new passports.

            Again! How does this keep happening?

          • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
            41·
            11 months ago

            Authoritarian and anti-democracy, characterized by misogyny, propaganda about past grievances.

            China ticks all the boxes. It’s definitely not communist anymore because billionaires exist there.

            • immuredanchorite [he/him, any]@hexbear.netEnglish
              7·
              11 months ago

              What a useless definition. It doesn’t even consider the class character of fascism.

              Authoritarian is a useless word. It literally could be used to describe any state.

              China is actually highly democratic, but that would require expanding your bourgeois ideas about democracy and understanding how their system actually works in practice.

              Misogyny is a problem everywhere and is in no way unique to fascism or any political economy, is predates capitalism by thousands of years. I agree it should be abolished, and that is what socialism aspires to do. But the idea that it can be eliminated by flipping a switch is idealist and unrealistic. There is plenty of truth to the critique that patriarchy still exists in China, but the PRC has maybe also done more than any other state to end some of the most oppressive forms of misogyny, for the most number of women, in history.

              Propaganda about past grievances? That is too vague to be meaningful either. Some past grievances, like the Japanese war crimes in China, are legitimate. Others, like conspiracies about “judeo-bolshevism” are not. The term “propaganda” here is loaded too, like if the US government does its best to bury its history of chattel slavery (like it is doing in florida, for instance), would it be “propaganda about past grievances” to fight back against that? Would you tell the grandchild of a slave in Florida that by spreading information as wide as possible to the people about the crime of slavery it is somehow fascist? it makes no sense

              • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
                21·
                11 months ago

                Authoritarian is a useless word.

                If you’re living in a place where they will drive over you with a tank if you protest the rulers, you’re living in an authoritarian state. This isn’t exacltly a subtle thing.

                Misogyny is a problem everywhere and is in no way unique to fascism or any political economy, is predates capitalism by thousands of years.

                I’m not talking about a few weird comments here and there. I’m talking about the ruling class in China raping women and getting away with it because it’s considered ok for the rulers to rape women in their society. Because it’s a fascist society. Communism is supposed to espouse equality between men and women. But China isn’t communist anymore.

                Propaganda about past grievances? That is too vague to be meaningful either.

                “Century of humiliation! We must allow strongman Xi to rule over us for as long he wants to fight back against the westerners trying to humiliate us!”

                This is standard fascist propaganda, fear of outsiders, citing past grievances as a reason for needing a strongman ruler.

                In reality it’s the CCP is humiliating the Chinese people. It’s a garbage government. The people of China deserve better.

      • Fox@pawb.social
        1819·
        11 months ago

        ATTENTION

        Your account has been flagged for CCP tankie shill-like activity. Please review These Nuts and never forget that Mao killed more people than Stalin and Hitler combined!

          • Fox@pawb.social
            812·
            11 months ago

            Your logic is baffling. Hitler killed millions of people in the Holocaust. Mao killed millions more, yet he’s still a folk hero. Where is the disconnect here?

            • brain_in_a_box [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
              1068·
              11 months ago

              That the only way you can come to the conclusion that Mao “killed more” is if you’re deliberately downplaying how many Hitler killed, aka Holocaust denial.

              • Fox@pawb.social
                58·
                11 months ago

                I may have missed the lesson where numbers aren’t allowed to be bigger than other numbers, so let me rephrase this in a way you might be able to understand. The most conservative estimate of famine deaths during the Great Leap Forward (backward) is greater than the ENTIRE European Jewish population in 1933 by at least six million.

                • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
                  965·
                  11 months ago

                  Famines were extremely common before the CPC came to power. Most Chinese people lived in extreme poverty, and life expectancy was less than 35, with no significant improvement under the KMT. In between Mao coming to power and his death, life expectancy in China nearly doubled. Today, average life expectancy in China has exceeded that of the US, a feat that would’ve been unimaginable back then.

                  It’s true that Mao made misteps (which the CPC readily admits), but those specific, dramatic events have been disproportionately elevated to obscure the more general trend, which has been drastic improvements in the lives of the people of China.

                  Of course, in addition to minimizing the frequency and severity of famines in pre-industrial China, your history books likely did not place the same level of blame on the British for the intentional famines which Ireland and India were subjected to, in which Britain did not only refuse to provide aid to their colonial subjects (often on the express basis that it would motivate people to work harder), but also did not cease their plundering - in both cases, food was exported out of the country while the people starved.

                • meth_dragon [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
                  844·
                  11 months ago

                  the GLF was economic policy made in response to withdrawal of soviet technological and financial aid during the sino-soviet split, one of the primary motivating factors of which being soviet insistence on china essentially allowing the soviets to recolonize the port of dalian to build a naval base from which to deploy its pacific fleet.

                  on top of being under sanctions from the west, the sino-soviet split further deprived china of markets with which to support its all-important capital intensive industries and so china was forced to resort to agricultural export as a method of making up the shortfall. collectivization was also pursued simultaneously to pool domestic capital for internal consumption, but due to various geographical, technical and political considerations, internal consumption was not sufficiently stimulated to support manufacturing, and so agricultural export became the primary way to finance china’s continued industrialization. most accounts that are not hysterically anti-communist (including liberal darling amartya sen) of the period around the 1958 famine have records of aggregate production being more than sufficient to sustain the overall population, with the primary points of failure being overzealous local governments in highly productive areas, as opposed to popular western conceptions of overbearing central government mandated directives.

                  all this to say that hitler and the holocaust’s relevance as a point of comparison to mao and the GLF as anything beyond ‘people died when he was in charge’ is laughably superficial and mostly only functions as a thought terminating associative fallacy for juicing your dopamine receptors in order to immunize your brain against more correct opinions.

                • brain_in_a_box [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
                  802·
                  11 months ago

                  Source: it came to me in a dream.

                  I also like how you’re deliberately trying to whitewash Hitler by ignoring all the non-Jewish deaths he was responsible for.

                  Seriously, you’re trying to argue that Mao “killed” every single person who starved to death in a famine, but Hitler is completely innocent of any of the deaths that occurred in World War 2. It’s a double standard no one would employ unless they were trying to downplay Hitler’s crimes.

              • emizeko [they/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
                15·
                11 months ago

                China’s growth in life expectancy between 1950 and 1980 ranks as among the most rapid sustained increases in documented global history.

                louder, for everyone in the back.

                CHINA’S GROWTH IN LIFE EXPECTANCY BETWEEN 1950 AND 1980 RANKS AS AMONG THE MOST RAPID SUSTAINED INCREASES IN DOCUMENTED GLOBAL HISTORY.

                :mao-wave:

            • ProxyTheAwesome [comrade/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
              342·
              11 months ago

              Hitler killed millions of people in the Holocaust.

              Fascism did this, not Hitler alone. Fascism and Capitalist Imperialism (western as well) started a world war that killed nearly 100 million people in WW2. Mao did not kill anywhere near that much, it’s reactionary nonsense. China experienced the greatest increase in life expectancy in history under Mao

            • Ram_The_Manparts [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
              262·
              11 months ago

              It’s funny how you clowns keep pretending that the only deaths Hitler caused were the ones that specifically happened in the death camps, as if he didn’t literally start WWII. And meanwhile you insist that every single stubbed toe and premature ejaculation that ever happened in a socialist country should be added to the “victims of communism” death toll.

              The double standard is baffling.

              • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
                21·
                11 months ago

                Scanning Umberto Eco’s 14 points, China ticks most of them.

                It’s certainly not communist else they would be redistributing the wealth of the billionaires, not welcoming them into the ruling party.

                • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
                  3·
                  11 months ago

                  else they would be redistributing the wealth of the billionaires, not welcoming them into the ruling party.

                  Hey look who wants to have an opinion without doing investigation. Is it any surprise they’re only able to speak nonsense?

              • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
                11·
                11 months ago

                Cancel culture is just changing the channel when there’s someone on your TV screen that you don’t like.

                You want go clockwork orange and strap people down, tape their eyes open and force them to watch the things you want them to watch? Because that would ensure the freedom of the people on TV to say whatever they want, right? The freedom of Hollywood assholes are more important that our freedom to change the channel, amirite?

                • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
                  5·
                  11 months ago

                  What the fuck are you even talking about with Hollywood and television? Are you on a script? Bitch, you’re the one complaining about cancel culture. You’re the one equating being made fun of for having stupid reactionary opinions to literal torture. Can you please put in the absolute bare minimum of effort when you speak to at least remember the topic of fucking discussion??

                  I haven’t been so befuddled by a completely deranged and incoherent reply since I last posted on reddit-logo. Buddy I do not miss dealing with dipshits like you.